The White Council

Re: Numenorean Nazgul????

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : The Numenoreans did not settle in the east. There is no way, : : : logically, to show that Khamul could be of Numenorean descent : : :with the available evidence.

: : There is no way to prove that the Numenoreans did not settle in : : the East. We know that they circumnavigated Middle-earth (as : : much as one can circumnavigate a flat plane), traveling to the : : uttermost East, North and South, and exploring all the : : coastlands and inland bays they discovered along the way.

: Some would say that Tolkien's assertion they only settled the western coasts of Middle-earth proves they didn't settle in the east. I happen to be one of those who would say so.

The Faithful settled mainly in the area of the western coasts, but the King's Men settled furthur to the south. From The Silmarillion, I get the impression that Umbar was only the northernmost of their realms:

'In all this [the subjection of the men of Middle-earth] the Elf-friends had small part. They alone came now ever to the north and the land of Gil-galad, keeping their friendship with the Elves and lending them aid against Sauron; and their haven was Pelargir above the mouths of Anduin the Great. But the King's Men sailed far away to the south; and the lordships and strongholds that they made have left many rumours in the legends of Men.'

: : The Numenoreans of those days (ca. SA 1800-2250) where like : : gods in comparison to the men of Middle-earth...

: Perhaps some people feel so, but not all, and Tolkien never said they were. The Numenoreans had brought civilization to areas of Middle-earth where the Eldar had no influence, but that was all long past by the time Sauron started giving out Rings of Power, and barbarians are neither weak nor stupid.

From The Silmarillion:

'Then the Men of Middle-earth were comforted, and here and there upon the western shores the houseless woods drew back, and Men shook off the yoke of the offspring of Morgoth, and unlearned their terror of dark. And they revered the memory of the tall Sea-kings, and when they had departed they called them gods, hoping for their return...'

This statement can only refer to the time period between SA 600 (the year in which Veantur first sailed to the Grey Havens) and SA 1869 (the beginning of the reign of Tar-Ciryatan). However, I doubt there could have been much intervention on the part of the Numenoreans prior to the year SA 1200 or so, since we know that Tar-Aldarion died in SA 1098 just as the Numenoreans were beginning their great voyages of discovery. OTOH, by SA 1869 we know that the Numenoreans ceased to visit Middle-earth as helpers, but rather as conquerors.

From Unfinished Tales:

'He was a mighty King [Tar-Ciryatan], but greedy of wealth; he built a great fleet of royal ships, and his servants brought back great store of metals and gems, and oppressed the men of Middle-earth...'

So, what we have is a period of roughly 600-700 years during which the Numenoreans went from being helpers to oppressors. This is not a particularly long period of time (perhaps 3-4 generations of Numenoreans), and the might of Numenor was only beginning to grow. IMO, there is little chance that the Men of Middle-earth had become so powerful and culturally advanced within a few hundred years that they could hope to oppose the Men of Westernesse. Remember that the Numenoreans grew stronger with time, not weaker, and the height of their power was not to be reached for another millenium.

: : ...Besides, who says Sauron lied to them anyway? He offered : : eternal life, and that is exactly what he delivered.

: He didn't give them eternal life. He couldn't alter their nature in the least. All he could do was trap their souls in an endless nightmare existence, and that is how Tolkien portrays it.

Somantics :)