The White Council

Re: Numenorean Nazgul????

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : Some would say that Tolkien's assertion they only settled the : : western coasts of Middle-earth proves they didn't settle in : : the east. I happen to be one of those who would say so.

: The Faithful settled mainly in the area of the western : coasts, but the King's Men settled furthur to the south. : From The Silmarillion, I get the impression that Umbar : was only the northernmost of their realms:

: 'In all this [the subjection of the men of Middle-earth] the : Elf-friends had small part. They alone came now ever to the : north and the land of Gil-galad, keeping their friendship with : the Elves and lending them aid against Sauron; and their haven : was Pelargir above the mouths of Anduin the Great. But the : King's Men sailed far away to the south; and the lordships and : strongholds that they made have left many rumours in the : legends of Men.'

This only confirms what I wrote above.

: : : The Numenoreans of those days (ca. SA 1800-2250) where like : : : gods in comparison to the men of Middle-earth...

: : Perhaps some people feel so, but not all, and Tolkien never : : said they were. The Numenoreans had brought civilization to : : areas of Middle-earth where the Eldar had no influence, but : : that was all long past by the time Sauron started giving out : : Rings of Power, and barbarians are neither weak nor stupid.

: From The Silmarillion:

And I have addressed this in another message.

[snip]

: So, what we have is a period of roughly 600-700 years during : which the Numenoreans went from being helpers to oppressors. : This is not a particularly long period of time (perhaps 3-4 : generations of Numenoreans), and the might of Numenor was only : beginning to grow. IMO, there is little chance that the Men of : Middle-earth had become so powerful and culturally advanced : within a few hundred years that they could hope to oppose the : Men of Westernesse. Remember that the Numenoreans grew : stronger with time, not weaker, and the height of their power : was not to be reached for another millenium.

It didn't take the Native Americans very long to acquire guns and the knowledge to use them against the white settlers. They were only defeated because of the superior numbers of the Europeans. Even without the factories and industry behind the United States army, the Native Americans achieved great military victories. They just couldn't stem the flow of immigrants coming from other parts of the world.

Nonetheless, how powerful the Numenoreans became militarily has no bearing on who was given Rings of Power, especially since it was probably the gifts of the Rings which started the Numenorean excesses in Middle-earth.

: : : ...Besides, who says Sauron lied to them anyway? He offered : : : eternal life, and that is exactly what he delivered.

: : He didn't give them eternal life. He couldn't alter their : : nature in the least. All he could do was trap their souls in : : an endless nightmare existence, and that is how Tolkien : : portrays it.

: Somantics :)

No, I won't accept burying the facts in word-play. The Ringwraiths were not living men, and Tolkien went out of his way to make that clear on several occasions. They were wraiths, no longer living. Call them dead or undead, Sauron was incapable of giving them longer life and Tolkien said so.

This is not a semantic issue. There is no common ground on which to reach a compromise here. Tolkien won't allow it.