The White Council

Dragons Balrogs Orcs and Trolls

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: yes that is true.... i was just re-reading some of the sil...

: but i guess even though there was only smaller numbers of Balrogs and dragons it does make it harder to attack... if the force was well and truly 100% orc it would be much easier to attack.

: i.e. army of elves attack a smaller army of orcs... the battle is going.. and 1 dragon flies down from angband (or wherever) and swoops at the elves.. breathing fire and so on.. the elves can't sit there and take pot-shots like Bard could in the hobbit.. they are being pressed by orcs in battle... they are trapped.. getting burned from above.. and stabbed on the ground

: so a dragon in use withs orcs makes it all the more harder then a straight group of orcs v elves... that is obvious.. but when u have a huge battle.. one that goes for days.. and u have thousand and thousands of orcs and 40 dragons roaming the battle field any army trying to attack is screwed... u might be thinking.. so what only 40 dragons... not all the orcs would be atthe front line.. only a few... were as dragons could al be at the front lines all the time.. up in the air.. breathing fire down on the elves... also it gets harder when a group of elves fight through some orcs and get to a balrog + more orcs... they have to worry about the fodder on the ground + dragons in the air + a balrog on he ground.. it makes it very hard then just straight orcs.

: do u get what i mean??? sure the orc's were the main force.. but when complemented with any number of other better warriors they get to be twice as effective.

: Beren Valthôl

Of course, orcs can be considered as fodder or foe, but when it comes down to a Balrog or Dragon the story will change. Orcs are one thing by themselves, but when complemented by something worse they are very effective. In the battle of Unnumbered Tears, when Hurin was captured had killed over 70, they were not all orcs, it says that he went through the entire Troll guard of Gothmug (probably 20). Trolls are another complementary force that were often in great numbers and were definetly know as formidable foes. Dragons are very effective at times but have all to many problems common to the orcs... In only two battles Glaurung fought to the end, and he was eventually slain by a single human with the element of surprise.

Dragons and Balrogs are one thing never to doubt, but no amount of them will ever equal anything with the element of surprise. Not to mention that they really only worked as support in large groups of orcs/trolls.

Maedhros