The White Council

Re: Elrond

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : I think Elrond was just a strong as FA elves. He just used his strength differently. I think many people make the mistake of thinking of the decline of elvish strength as a decline in the strength of individual elves, and not as a decline in the strength of the elven people, as a whole, to influence the world around them. I believe the latter is what Tolkien ment when he said elvish strength had declined in the TA. : : ~Aelmer

: : I agree with this to some extent, but I think I was one of the loudest supporters of the point that third age elves were inferior when compared to "First Agers".

: It has already been said before that Elrond never really proved that he was great in arms, or in military tactics. We are given no evidence (sorry, direct evidence) that Elrond was a great war leader, or that he could defeat X number of orcs in combat. Okai, that's not conclusive evidence that he WASN"T great, however, you'd think that in the thousands of years that he was alive, he would have done something that the bards can sing about! Even a good tactical decision at one stage or something...

: I agree that he was one of the wisest, BUT, remember that he had lived long enough to learn humility, and patience, etc. Most of the First Age elves were pretty hot blooded.

: As with any debate, this may come down to the semantics of "What do you define as greatness". Personally, I don't think it's all feat in arms, etc, BUT, that does come into it. Was Elrond shown to have great skill and subtlety of hand? Not really. Was he a fighter? Not as far as I know. Was he a reknown military leader? Well... this can be argued for quite a while. In fact, thinking about it, I think that to be great, he would have to shine in one of his fields. The only thing that Elrond is REALLY known for, is his wisdom. (I'm not saying he's definitely not great in the other areas, but there is little evidence to back it up) As I said before, Elrond's wisdom was almost default, because he got to live so long, through so much strife. It wasn't something that was purely innate, and born with. it was something that a leader learns, when he has to live through so many defeats, and so many sorrows.

: That's my two cents : =)

: Gandalf

I also think Elrond was not a great fighter compared to the heroes of the FA. Not saying he is a bad fighter I think he could have taken on any individual thing Sauron could have thrown at him in the TA with the exception of Sauron himself. However I also think there is something more to greatnesst than strength of arms. Is Frodo great? I think so. Did he fight in any battles? Not really but ultimately it was through Frodo (with some help!!!) that Sauron was overthrown not through battle and war.

Wisdom comes through experience true but many of the other elves had had a great deal of experience and they are not considered as wise as Elrond.

Thorin