The White Council

Re: Gil-Galad and the high kingship

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

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: : : After Feanor's banishment to Formenos, accompanied by his father, Nolofinwe ruled the Noldor in Tirion. But at this point, there appears no impairment of Feanor's status. Finwe supported his eldest to the point of going to Formenos with him during the banishment. He said "While the ban lasts of Feanor my son, that he may not go to Tirion, I hold myself unkinged, and I will not meet my people." Finwe was firmly behind Feanor.

: : : When Feanor went to Valinor at Manwe's invitation, the brothers were reconciled and Nolofinwe acknowledged Feanor's status: "You will lead and I will follow". This, I believe, is the later conception and replaced Nolofinwe asserting an affirmative claim on the kingship.

: : This is a later writing (according to CT) but I do not know that it replaced the earlier version (which is also very late and is said to be JRRT's last linguitic writing on the history of those names therein) or was yet another version to be contemplated. I do not see it being at complete odds with Fingolfin changing his mind and reasserting his claim, which it would seem the Noldor wanted him to do, and was one of the reasons given for Feanor leaving them behind.

: The two version give quite different pictures of Fingolfin's personality. In the "claiming" version, he is almost as prideful as Feanor. He makes his claim pratically the second after Feanor walked out the door to Formenos. In the "You lead, I follow" version he's much more sedate and accepting of his secondary position. He never makes an affirmative claim; rather the people and those around him advance his position. Interesing, to say the least.

"The sons of Finwe were proud, but proudest was Feanor." "Thus died Fingolfin, High-king of the Noldor, most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old." In the version (I think) we are discussing, Fingolfin does not make the claim (by prefixing Finwe to his name) until after the death of Finwe, during the march to Araman, but before Feanor deserts them (this being one of the reasons given for Feanor deserting Fingolfin and co. I think it would have been after the Kinslaying and presume that the Kinslaying is one of the reasons for it).

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: : : The status of the eldar house of Feanor as set forth in Shibboleth is consistent with that found in the Silmarillion. After Maddhros' rescue by Fingon. In return, Maedhros *waived* his claim to kingship over all the Noldor. "...The House of Feanor was called the Dispossessed, because the overlordship passed from it, the elder..."

: : : Thus Feanor's statements to his sons in Shibboleth were correct: they were the heirs of Feanor and the elder house. They were "possessed" of that right. Maedhros' father-name was Nelyafinwe - third Finwe - representing his status as third after Finwe and Feanor. It took the abdication by Maedhros to *dis*possess the Feanoreans of the legal right (although their position in the hearts of the Noldor had already crumbled)

Stil even Feanor believed that Fingolfin could replace him: "See half-brother! he said. This is sharper than thy tongue. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be the master of thralls."

: If we're going with the "later" version, there are so many other considerations that the law and custom gets, I believe, lost in the mix. What I perceive going on in the early days of the Exile is that the non-Feanoreans were so horrified at what they saw in the Kinslaying and what they experienced in crossing the Helcaraxe that there was simply no way the greater part of the Noldor were going to follow the Feanoreans. Law or custom was irrelevant at that point and any asserted claim by Fingolfin (or on his behalf) would have been contrary to law/custom. Maedhros, who did have the occassional good quality, saw this situation: knew the Noldor would have to at least be titularly united and that would not occur under his house, was personally sorrowful for the abandonment of Fingolfin's host and personally grateful for his rescue. In that situation, he had little choice but to do the honorable thing and set he and his house aside.

I do not disagree and further the "High Kingship of the Noldor would actually seem to be a 'different' Kingship than that of Finwe Noldoran. That is (IIRC) Finwe was not called High King of the Noldor. He was just King. The 'High-kingship' began with Fingolfin.

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: : : : : There's an important distinction. All those you listed were Noldorin kings - but they were not Kings of the Noldor in thier capacities as King of Nargothrond, King of Gondolin, King of Hithlum, etc. The position of (high) King of the Noldor transcended geopolitical considerations and was am overlordship of the Noldor as a people. The is the kingship Tolkien refers to in the passage from App B being debated. No one could in any event be heir to the crowns of Nargothrond, Gondolin, etc. at the beginning of the Second Age as those realms no longer existed.

: : : : However JRRT refers to them as Kings of the Noldor, and not in their capacities as regional kings. "The Noldor then became (after Fingolfin's death) divided into seperate kingships [not 'kingdoms' which they already had] under Fingon ... Turgon ... Maedros ... and Finrod ...".

: : : That text doesn't say they were Kings of the Noldor. The overlordship of the Noldor was never divided even though the Noldor did divide into separate physical realms. The high kingship always remained singular.

: : The above quoted text says just that. The Noldor became divided into separate kingships under Fingon, Maedhros etc. That is they were Kings of (various factions) of the Noldor. It does not say principalities or lordships or chieftainships, it says kingships. : : Further: "Thus his realm was the greatest though he was the youngest of the great lords of the Gnomes, Fingolfin, Fingon, and Maidros, and Inglor Felagund. But Fingolfin was held overlord among them... : : And in Doriath abode Thingol, the hidden king, and into his realm none passed save by his will, and when summoned thither: and mighty though the Kings of the Noldor were in those days and filled with the fire and glory of Valinor, the name of Thingol was held in awe among them." Kings of the Noldor is refering back to those aforenamed individuals.

: These are not the same thing. We're talking about an *over*lordship, a *high* kingship. There were several separate Noldorin realms under separate sovereigns, but there was only one high king who ruled (nominally, for sure) the Noldor as a society. None of the individuals (except the one high king) have a slice of the high kingship which is the crown we're discussing.

As I initiallly said this is 'semantics'. The LotR text you were quoting does not say High King of the Noldor, just kings of the Noldor;).

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: : Elrond was not 'heir presumptive', he preferred to reckon his lineage through his mother to Elwe. He thus 'dispossessed' himself of a claim on the title. He preferred his lineage to Thingol who was not under the ban. He 'disassociated' himself from his other lineage.

: I think that's a great leap. All Ros said is that he preferred his Sindarin lineage. It's a great leap to take that one phrase and turn it into a formal abdication of his right to inherit the Noldorin high kingship. What other corroboration is there for that?

That is my interpretation. I think it unlikely, for example, for Elrond to say 'I want to reckon my lineage through Elwing to Elwe so that I can distance myself from any possible association with the Rebellion and it's brutal events. But I still want to be High King of the Noldor." :)

I think I have little more to add to this topic. It has been enjoyable. I am sure we will do it again on something else. Thanks.