The White Council

Re: Tolkien`s eye

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: [snips throughout] : : One thing I noticed through reading the Lord of the Rings is that almost every detail in the book is either something a surviving character would have known, or could have learned afterwards - or else something that could have been added later from the general knowledge of the scribes who copied the red book.

: I never noticed that before. I like it.

: : This perspective is remarkably consistent, and in the two (or possibly three) incidents in the whole work where this it falters, I`ve wondered what could be the explanation. One such incident especially is very important.

: : The first incident occurs before they have left the Shire: the three hobbits are asleep under the trees, and a fox stops by and is extremely puzzled, knowing that there was something queer behind it, but it goes away without learning any more. The hobbits are asleep and never saw it - so how did Frodo know it had been there, and that it was curious? Possibly a ranger might have deduced its presence from the tracks, but it`s a bit far-fetched to suppose that a troubled hobbit would worked it all out in the morning.

: I would take this as literary license of the writer. In writing the story & remembering that time, it would be easy for a hobbit writer to suppose such a thing, and it really has no impact on the story itself. So taking a fancy to it, wrote it in.

: By the way, this is also a great explanation for many of the : 'inconsistencies' of the Hobbit versus the rest of ME literature: the silly singing elves, the stone giants during the storm, and others that don't fit: Bilbo did some enhancing of his story.

This onc could be a certain artistic license, perhaps, as it doesn`t affect the story, but does make it clear to the reader that this was already highly unconventional behaviour for hobbits. In the Hobbit, I think Bilbo misunderstood rather than enhanced the story - but elves are strange folk, and even when Frodo comes to Rivendell Sam point out that some are merry as children, I think. There are elves and elves, and some perhaps can appear foolish to those that don`t know them under the stars on a midsummer night, although even then Bilbo knew enough to point out "this is a very foolish thing to think."

: : The second incident is far more important, as it is the only evidence we have of Gollum`s repentance. In the tunnel of Cirith Ungol, just before Gollum leads them into Shelob`s lair, Frodo and Sam are asleep, as Gollum comes back from his tryst with Shelob. We see him hesitate when he sees the hobbits asleep in the passage, as if in an unseen debate with himself, and then he is touched and finally melted - at least till Sam pushes him back into treachery. This is the fleeting moment when had they seen him, "they would have thought they beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, an old starved pitiable thing." But they didn`t see him, so how did that scene get into the red book?

: My best explanation for this is Sam. His initial reaction may have been much different than what image was left in his mind to chew on. When his eyes first opened, he did see an ancient hobbit, but when he focused he saw Stinker pawing at Master. Despite his outburst & missing it at the time, his mind did record the expression on Gollum's face & how it changed when Sam called out.

I don`t know. It`s ingenious, but I think the words imply he didn`t (see my post above) and I`m sure he couldn`t have caught the Gollum`s inner doubt when he saw the sleeping hobbits, and his silent rejection of Shelob before he moved to touch Frodo.

: : The other incident which perhaps wasn`t seen or heard by any surviving character, is that of Boromir after his final confrontation with Frodo: "...a madness took me, but it has passed..." How do we know this? "Frodo did not even hear his cries."

: I would say Gandalf saw this one. Perhaps thru the Mirror of Galadriel, or second-hand thru the eagle.

I never thought of the Mirror. No sounds seem to come through it, but it might not be the only way of seeing, or hearing, in such a way.