The White Council

Re: Tolkien`s eye

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : One thing I noticed through reading the Lord of the Rings is that almost every detail in the book is either something a surviving character would have known, or could have learned afterwards - or else something that could have been added later from the general knowledge of the scribes who copied the red book. Thus we hear Aragorn`s thoughts on occasion, but not Boromir`s, as he was not around afterwards to tell them to Frodo; we can only guess them from his words and behaviour as reported by others. Similarly, we`re not told whether Shelob survived, as the hobbits and the Kings of Gondor never found out for sure. We`re told about the great slave-worked fields in the south of Mordor, and the roads bringing tribute out of the east, because, while the hobbits were ignorant of this when they wondered how Sauron fed his armies, Frodo would presumably have asked Gandalf or Aragorn when the war was over, when he was putting his notes in order in Minas Tirith.

: : This perspective is remarkably consistent, and in the two (or possibly three) incidents in the whole work where this it falters, I`ve wondered what could be the explanation. One such incident especially is very important.

: : The first incident occurs before they have left the Shire: the three hobbits are asleep under the trees, and a fox stops by and is extremely puzzled, knowing that there was something queer behind it, but it goes away without learning any more. The hobbits are asleep and never saw it - so how did Frodo know it had been there, and that it was curious? Possibly a ranger might have deduced its presence from the tracks, but it`s a bit far-fetched to suppose that a troubled hobbit would worked it all out in the morning.

: : The second incident is far more important, as it is the only evidence we have of Gollum`s repentance. In the tunnel of Cirith Ungol, just before Gollum leads them into Shelob`s lair, Frodo and Sam are asleep, as Gollum comes back from his tryst with Shelob. We see him hesitate when he sees the hobbits asleep in the passage, as if in an unseen debate with himself, and then he is touched and finally melted - at least till Sam pushes him back into treachery. This is the fleeting moment when had they seen him, "they would have thought they beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, an old starved pitiable thing." But they didn`t see him, so how did that scene get into the red book?

: : The only explanation I can think of is that later on, when Sauron had fallen, Aragorn used the palantir to look towards Mordor, and perhaps the shire and other places the hobbots had gone to on their travels, and had also looked back in time as well, at the travels of the ringbearers - and that he was able to see Gollum`s debate, and the brief change that came over his face. We`re not told any words he may have said. But to look back in time must take *enormous* strength of will, and be extremely wearing.

: : The other incident which perhaps wasn`t seen or heard by any surviving character, is that of Boromir after his final confrontation with Frodo: "...a madness took me, but it has passed..." How do we know this? "Frodo did not even hear his cries."

: : One possibility is that while Frodo did not consciously hear it, the words did make a vague imprint on his mind, and with time they came back to him, or in a dream. But it sounds thin to me. Could Aragorn have looked back through the palantir at the last hours of Boromir (but would he want to intrude on his his behaviour in a moment of shame?) And looking back upon Boromiir in his last hours, with the palantir conveniently placed and pointed in the right direction to see his face, could Aragorn somehow manage to lipread the tiny image of Boromir`s face, and therefore know the last words that he ever called after Frodo? How much had Gandalf see, with his own long sight?

: : Do you think it`s possible that Aragorn consciously aided Frodo with his story by using the palantir? I myself doubt it. Aragorn was far too busy, I think, and Pippin doesn`t seem to have been aware the palantir had been put to such a use. If the palantir was ever used to look back on these events, I think it was probably decades later that these details were added to the book.

: : Still, does anyone have any other suggestions?

: I actually don't like the idea that the Lotr is a translation of the Red Book. Or, I do think think it is in a way a cool idea, but whenever I read it and think that what I read was supposedly written by the characters or based on their knowledge, I get put off. I want to have the feeling that I know more than the people involved. I want to have the feeling that "this is absolute knowledge" instead of it being just an account filtered through subjective hobbit-minds, the 'accuracy' of which there can be no certainty. I picture the characters in a certain way, but thinking that they are meant to be the source behind what I read somehow does not fit the way I imagine them. : So I gladly welcome passages such as you mentioned as an indication that the book is not meant to be just a hobbit story, but that there's greater knowledge behind it than they could come by. If you know what I mean. : -Foradan

Those passages are not enough to suggest the author has a bird`s eye view. What makes them so intriguing is that they are quite unique.