: : ... Elrond just previously states that he once journeyed in the : : the great forest as it once was (i.e. before the Numenoreans : : and Sauron devastated it) and Elrond knew Bombadil from those : : travels as one of the "many things wild and strange I knew."...
: And he doesn't say that Bombadil was anywhere to be found in that great forest.
That's not how I read Elrond's words. He describes how large the old Forest once was, says he journeyed in *those* lands once and saw many strange and wild things. Then he says he had forgotten about Bombadil. I read it as Bombadil being one of those strange and wild things he knew when he journeyed in the old Forest before it's destruction, which would be in the first 1000 years of the Second Age.
: : Tom's story to the Hobbits included great detail about the : : woods, and he "laid bare the hearts of trees and their : : thoughts" "He told them tales of bees and flowers, the ways of : : trees, and the strange creatures of the Forest, about evil : : things and good things, things friendly and unfirendly, cruel : : things nad kind things, and secrets hidden under brambles."...
: After a few centuries in the vicinity, I'm sure he had learned much about the woods.
: : ...It's never explicitly said Tom previoulsy limited himself to : : Eriador but I think the implication is strong. In story spell : : he wove for the hobbits, he was speaking as s first person : : witness to the event he recounted: The Great Barrows and Stone : : RIngs, Kings of little kingdoms and the *young* sun shining : : like fire on the metal of their arms.
: In that case, his history began with the founding of Arnor, which would contradict what both Bombadil and Elrond said of his ancientness.
His words place him there well before the founding of Arnor. He described the *making* of the green mounds and ring forts which occurred in the First Age when the sun was *young*. The Sun was young in the First Age, not the Third Age. App A states the mounds of the barrowdowns were built by the forefathers of the Edain before they crossed into Beleriand. Tom was there to witness that. He spoke of "new and greedy swords". That doesn't sound like Third Age Arnor. This sounds like the First Age Edain.
: Bombadil gave the Hobbits a very relevant and pertinent history lesson, preparing them for the journey ahead.
: : In his "Tom was here" speech, the indication I get is that he : : was *there* in that area of Middle-earth, not just that he was : : in Middle Earth in general.
: [snip]
: I don't get that impression myself. I gather he moved around and eventually settled down in Eriador.
It could be read either way. He uses that "Tom was here" construction over and over again that it seems purposefully emphatic. IT seem sto me that to Tom, the Old Willow is not just some ancient power onto whose turf he moved. Rather they've known each other since before the Sun, in the twilight.
: : : And there is no reason to assume he intervened in the War of : : : the Elves and Sauron, or that he had any particular affinity : : : with Eriador or its forests before he did "retire" from the : : : world, as it were.
: : I didn't say he intervened. But I do argue that Sauron must : : have come to him. What other explanation is there for the : : survival fof this small remnant of the great Forest?
: It's highly doubtful Tom was in the region at the time. There would have been nothing for him to do there. There were no evils for him to watch over. He most likely had other concerns and dwelt elsewhere (or wandered around).
Watching over evils? I don't think that was his role. He just was. Tom was not an anti-evil crusader. He only intervened when there was a direct threat to somebody and then only in the most minimum way possible. I don't think Tom had any such concerns - I think that's the whole point the the Council's discussion about him. He loved nature for itself - wild and free.
: : : I think Tom was probably on reasonable terms with the : : : Dunedain of Arthedain as well as Cardolan, and he probably : : : wasn't living in the Downs at the time.
: : : The Dunedain of Cardolan fled into Tyrn Gorthad and the Old : : : Forest. Angmar's army followed them into both places. The : : : soldiers probably made a last stand in Tyrn Gorthad and the : : : last of Cardolan's people probably survived in the forest, : : : though they seem to have been attacked there (Tolkien implies : : : this in one of his letters). There in no indication that : : : Bombadil was anywhere in the vicinity.
: : Do you recall the cite for that? I certainly missed it. I had : : always thought that the Dunedain retreated back into the Downs : : and the Forest but Angmar never actually went in - certainly : : not into the forest.
: THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, in one of the 1409 entries it says the Dunedain retreated to the Old Forest and the Barrow Downs.
The published App B entry for 1409 only says that Tyrn Gorthad (and Fornost) was defended. It sounds like Angmar did not get in. App A says they "held out" in Tyrn Gorthad or "took refuge" in the Forest behind. Neither text indicates that Angmar's forces entered Tyrn Gorthad or the Forest. The opposite, as I read it. Logically, after having been defeated along their main line of defense along the Weather Hills and the Great Road, there was no way the Cardolan refugees could have defended themselves against any serious attempt by Angmar to move into Tyrn Gorthad and the Old Forest. The only explanation I can think of is Tom.
The 1409 entry on pg 230 of POME was rejected. The Barrowdowns did not become deserted and the wights come until 250 or so years later when the Plague came as reported in LOTR. Is there another 1409 entry I am missing?
Russ
