The White Council

Re: I may have missed something obvious but...

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : I have always thought of him (The Mouth) as a good contender for the focus of resurgent evil in the abortive 4th Age sequel to LOTR Tolkien wrote. After all there were plenty of areas in further Rhun or Harad where Sauron was worshipped which would never fall under the authority of the Reunited Kingdom. : : : The Mouth was a Numenorean and so naturally long-lived, he may have also learned a great deal from Sauron, perhaps enough to try his hand at minor Ring making.

: : The rebuilding of Barad-Dur began sixty eight years before its fall, and as we`re told he came into Sauron`s service when it first rose again, the Mouth of Sauron must have been in his nineties. It also sounds as though he was expecting a long and prosperous career ahead of him. However, if the New Shadow occurs at the end of the second century, he would have to have lived some decades longer than Aragorn, and Aragorn lived longer than any other contemporary Dunedain, even those of pure blood. His life would have had to be artificially prolonged.

: This would be a possibility, Sauron was no slouch on the sorcery front.

: : What Sauron may have taught him is another matter. All existing rings were subject to the One and lost their power with its destruction, but now that you mention it, I don`t see why he couldn`t externalise his power to increase it in the way the original ring-makers did. Someone who "knew much of the mind of Sauron might well know how. The problem is that without the power the elves could put into the Great Rings, any ring he made wouldn`t drag out his life in the same way - but I suppose it might increase its duration - and probably he knew other sorcerous means. Alternatively, he may have begun the cult, and passed it on to someone else.

: We know that Ring making was a possibility for someone adept and powerful as Saruman apparently made his own ring (and he probably did not get direct tutelage from Sauron in this matter at least). Not that I claim that The Mouth was a figure with anything approaching Saruman's native power. Though The Mouth possibly had the advantage of direct access to the advice and guidance of the master ring-maker himself. Also the Witch King was of similar origins as The Mouth and became, in Sauron's service, a being of such power that he could think of challenging even the re-vamped Gandalf, as he did at Minas Tirith.

: : It`s indeed possible that as his will had been so much taken over by Sauron`s that he had apparently forgotten his own name, he would have been as confused as the trolls when it failed. I don`t think so, though. He must have been a man of truly remarkable gifts to have risen so high in Sauron`s favour as to be called his lieutenant, and for him, rather than a Nazgul, to be his viceroy in the West.

: : There`s an ambiguous reference to the witch-king in the Return of the King: we`re told he was never seen again in that age of the world. Does that mean he could possibly have come back in a future age? I don`t see how, as he was a mortal man, and had only "lived" as long as he did because of the ring, but that reference is ambiguous enough to make me wonder: in what way was the witch-king different from any of the other Nazgul. He was the only one of them not to stray in the daylight. Could he have had some other enhancement to his power quite apart from the ring? Could he (I`m really being fanciful now) not merely have been a Numenorean, but one with some elvish blood? Or would that not have made a difference.

: If he was of a lineage with Royal connections he might well have had both elvish and Maiar ancestry. High irony if the lineage of Luthien (which was never to fail) was found in the major players on both sides of the war!

Yes, it would be, and it might be true - for all we know he had a better claim to the lost throne than anyone! - not that that is likely! I was wondering if the Witch-King might even have had more immediate elvish ancestry, from an unknown marriage of a Numenorean and an elf, but I don`t suppose there`s any reason to suppose that. That he might have been of the line of Elros is a much more likely explanation of his considerable gifts.

: The same might be postulated for the Mouth also ;)

: : Or is that reservation "in that age of the world" simply a reference to the final battle when Melkor returns.

: I suspect so.