The White Council

Re: Bombadil Thoughts

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : And he doesn't say that Bombadil was anywhere to be found in : : that great forest.

: That's not how I read Elrond's words. He describes how large : the old Forest once was, says he journeyed in *those* lands : once and saw many strange and wild things. Then he says he had : forgotten about Bombadil. I read it as Bombadil being one of : those strange and wild things he knew when he journeyed in the : old Forest before it's destruction, which would be in the first : 1000 years of the Second Age.

Elrond is just sort of rambling at that point.

   'This is greivous news concerning Saruman,' he said; 'for we   trusted him and he is deep in all our counsels.  It is perilous   to study too deeply the arts of the Enemy, for good or for ill.   But such falls and betrayals, alas, have happened before.  Of   the tales that we have heard this day the tale of Frodo was   most strange to me.  I have known few hobbits, save Bilbo here;   and it seems to me that he is perhaps not to alone and singular   as I had thought him.  The world has changed much since I last   was on the westward roads.' 

Up to here he's mentioned Saruman, Sauron, Bilbo, Frodo, and the lands west of Rivendell. And he's alluded to the past and to the nature of hobbits (as he had perceived them).

Then he rambles on with:

   'The Barrow-wights we know by many names; and of the Old Forest   many tales have been told: all that now remains is but an   outlier of its northern march.  Time was when a squirrel could   go from tree to tree from is now the Shire to Dunland west of   Isengard.  In those lands I journeyed once, and many things   wild and strange I knew.  But I had forgotten Bombadil, if   indeed this is still the same that walked the woods and hills   long ago, and even then he was older than the old.  That was   not then his name.  Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and   fatherless.  But many another name he has since been given by   other folk: Forn by the Dwarves, Orald by Northern Men, and   other names beside.  He is a strange creature, but maybe I   should have summoned him to our Council.' 

Which Northern Men is Elrond referring to? The Edainic peoples of Eriador? The Dunedain? The Edainic peoples of Rhovanion?

Why did the Dwarves give him a name? If they weren't fond of the forests (and they weren't), then they should never have interacted with him enough to want to name him.

The implication is that Bombadil was known to many peoples. Elrond named only a few examples. So the old boy definitely seems to have gotten around at one time.

: : In that case, his history began with the founding of Arnor, : : which would contradict what both Bombadil and Elrond said of : : his ancientness.

: His words place him there well before the founding of Arnor. He : described the *making* of the green mounds and ring forts which : occurred in the First Age when the sun was *young*. The Sun was : young in the First Age, not the Third Age. App A states the : mounds of the barrowdowns were built by the forefathers of the : Edain before they crossed into Beleriand. Tom was there to : witness that. He spoke of "new and greedy swords". That : doesn't sound like Third Age Arnor. This sounds like the First : Age Edain.

Yes, and my point, however, is that not everything occurred in that region. Where does it say the first raindrop fell in Eriador? Where does it say the first flowers bloomed there?

Bombadil had to have been around during the time of the first war, before the Valar settled on Almaren. There was no Eriador, and the flowers most likely came from Almaren and spread across the world from there.

: : I don't get that impression myself. I gather he moved around : : and eventually settled down in Eriador.

: It could be read either way. He uses that "Tom was here" : construction over and over again that it seems purposefully : emphatic. IT seems to me that to Tom, the Old Willow is not : just some ancient power onto whose turf he moved. Rather : they've known each other since before the Sun, in the twilight.

I don't get that impression at all. Old Man Willow doesn't seem to be nearly as old as Tom (in fact, he can't be, if Tom's claim is correct). Where is "here" that Tom was "here" before the world was changed? Middle-earth, or the one spot in Eriador where the Hobbits found him (and which Gandalf said he had withdrawn to -- implying he had once wandered farther abroad)?

: : It's highly doubtful Tom was in the region at the time. : : There would have been nothing for him to do there. There : : were no evils for him to watch over. He most likely had : : other concerns and dwelt elsewhere (or wandered around).

: Watching over evils? I don't think that was his role. He just : was. Tom was not an anti-evil crusader. He only intervened : when there was a direct threat to somebody and then only in the : most minimum way possible. I don't think Tom had any such : concerns - I think that's the whole point the the Council's : discussion about him. He loved nature for itself - wild and : free.

Tom did indeed watch over the evils in the region. He said so. "I've got my things to do," he says when he tells the hobbits he's escorting them the rest of the way to the ancient road. "My making and my singing, my talking and my walking, and my watching of the country. Toom can't be always near to open doors and willow-cracks. Tom has his house to mind, and Goldberry is waiting."

His "country" seems to include the barrow-downs (the northern border of which is the border of his country, he says). It's not clear that it included the Old Forest, although he seems to have spent plenty of time there. But he also visited the Shire (and Bree, if you're willing to disregard Tolkien's comment at one point that Bombadil wouldn't have visited Bree).

And Bombadil is closely associated with the Willow and the Wight, even in the poems.

: : : Do you recall the cite for that? I certainly missed it. I : : : had always thought that the Dunedain retreated back into : : : the Downs and the Forest but Angmar never actually went in : : : - certainly not into the forest.

: : THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, in one of the 1409 entries it : : says the Dunedain retreated to the Old Forest and the Barrow : : Downs.

: The published App B entry for 1409 only says that Tyrn Gorthad : (and Fornost) was defended. It sounds like Angmar did not get : in. App A says they "held out" in Tyrn Gorthad or "took : refuge" in the Forest behind. Neither text indicates that : Angmar's forces entered Tyrn Gorthad or the Forest. The : opposite, as I read it. Logically, after having been defeated : along their main line of defense along the Weather Hills and : the Great Road, there was no way the Cardolan refugees could : have defended themselves against any serious attempt by Angmar : to move into Tyrn Gorthad and the Old Forest. The only : explanation I can think of is Tom.

Tom wasn't there. But Tyrn Gorthad couldn't be defended completely. The Dunedain of Cardolan were all but destroyed.

   A great host came out of Angmar in 1409, and crossing the river   entered Cardolan and surrounded Weathertop.  The Dunedain were   defeated and Arveleg was slain.  The Tower of Amon Sul was   burned and razed; but the palantir was saved and carried   back in retreat to Fornost.  Rhudaur was occupied by evil Men   subject to Angmar, and the Dunedain that remained there were   slain or fled west.  Cardolan was ravaged.  Araphor son of   Arveleg was not yet full-grown, but he was valiant, and with   aid from Cirdan he reppeled the enemy from Fornost and the   North Downs.  A remnant of the faithful among the Dunedain of   Cardolan also held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrowdowns), or   took refuge in the Forest behind.' 

But when Merry was revived by Bombadil, he was clearly influenced by the death memory of the last prince of Cardolan, whose camp or fortress was attacked at night by the Men of Carn Dum, and he was slain there. So Tyrn was attacked. It was a huge region, and the story makes it clear that whatever army Cardolan had once possessed had by then been destroyed. So there is simply no way the Dunedain "held" all of Tyrn Gorthad against the invasion which had swept away their border forces, taken Amon Sul, destroyed their eastern homelands, and resulted in a direct assault on Fornost and the North Downs.

: The 1409 entry on pg 230 of POME was rejected. The Barrowdowns : did not become deserted and the wights come until 250 or so : years later when the Plague came as reported in LOTR. Is there : another 1409 entry I am missing?

Page 230 is way too early. Remember, Christopher presents the material in "The Heirs of Elendil" in reverse order, so the most finished material comes first. Look page 194 and you'll see much the same information as I cited above from the Appendix: "Cardolan is ravaged...while the remaining Dunedain of Cardolan hold out in the Barrow Downs and the Forest;..."

Bombadil simply wasn't a factor.