The White Council

Re: Saruman...Out of the Loop

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : Interesting points, but I beg respectfully to differ on a couple of issues. Just because he didn't recognize Aragorn does not mean he was completely ignorant of the Dunadan of the north.

: : : I think you are right. : : : My problem is how come Sauron didn't know about the shire? : : : It was quite a big place and the WK had been in Angmar for a : : : long time and some of the battles of that time were not very far from shire or Bree. And if I would have been Sauron I would have been pretty sure that galadriel had one of the Three. : : : Sauron had met Galadriel as Annatar and he must have known her history, heritage and perhaps about Celebimbor's feelings for her.

: : : Tamim the OLOG : : :

: : When you think about it, there really wasn't anything important enough in the area of the Shire to give the WK reason to remember its location or what type of people lived there. There would be no reason to tell Sauron about the area, even if the WK remembered it.

: : There is nothing important in Northern Finland or Canada either : but they are areas. One simply doesn't ignore large geographic : areas even if the inhabitants are not important. One can wage war : or march trough any terrain. It is unbelievable that the WK had forgottten so vast area in the Northlands. Look at the map.

Like any area of scattered villages and farms, with little or no defense, the Shire would be only noted as an area that would be easy to conquer after defeating his foes. Perhaps some memory of the area might remain, but I doubt the WK,or Sauron, would be able equate the name Shire with an area from long ago.~

: : Unless I'm mistaken, Sauron trying to recover the three rings was a cause of the Elves vs Sauron War.

: No it wasn't, it was one of the causes. The big cause was to : conquer all the North Western ME. The rings were just a bonus. : Sauron wanted the One, after that the Three would have been under : his control.

I hate to say this, but "a cause" implies there was more than one cause.~

: : The chances are very good the Sauron suspected which important elf may have had a ring, but getting the rings was the problem.

: I don't think it was such a big problem. He could have attacked Lorien from Dol Guldur.

: : Tamim the TROLL

Sure, he could have attacked Lorien. However, he wouldn't know for certain an elf ring was there. Launching a full scale assault on only a suspecion that something is there is a big, and risky, gamble.

The only way for Sauron to collect the elf rings would be for an elf to use the ring while Sauron was wearing the one ring. Then and only then would the elf ring become subject to the One. Sauron could kill or subjegate all the elves, and still not be certain of collecting the the three rings. ~Aelmer