The White Council

Re: Feudal Gondor?

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : I think we are dealing here with something like a feudal system. Well compliance with a call for troops was not strictly speaking voluntary, the ability of central authority to force obedience was somewhat limited. Another analogy might be A. Lincoln's call for the states to supply troops at the beginning of the Civil War. While the northern states complied, many of the border states refused. At that point in time Lincoln was not in position to enforce his decree (though later he was.) I think Denethor was in roughly the same situation.

: : On the contrary, Gondor was not a feudal state, nor in any way related to Middle Age European feudalism (the same can be said for Arnor as well). The basis of military service or scuttage in exchange for land is completely absent. In some cases, the families which held the 'fiefs' of Gondor where older than the kingdom itself. Pelargir was already over 1000 years old when Elendil and his sons arrived, and undoubtably there must have been an existing aristocracy as well as some form of government (even if it was only an oligarchy).

: : The main difference seems to be the distinction of Anorien, Ithilien and Calenardhon as royal lands - lands held directly by the King(s) - and the other provinces such as Lebennin, Lamedon, Morthond, Pinnath Gelin, Lossarnach (which Tolkien notes is neither a Numenorean nor Elvish name), etc. which seem to have been under the hereditary authority of noble families. These families may have acknowledged the descent and authority of Elendil, but that does not mean that they were under any binding obligation to leave their own realms defensless in order to answer a feudal call-to-arms (nor did they offer scuttage).

: : Anorien, Ithilien and (formally) Calenardhon were probably ruled by regents or wardens on behalf of the King (this was at least true in the case of Angrenost, and probably in Minas Anor and Minas Ithil as well). This was not the case in the 'southern fiefs' (especially if the Kin-strife is any indication). During both the Kin-strife and the War of the Ring, the southerners considered loyalty to the King (or Steward) as a secondary consideration to their own interests. Had it not been for the arrival of Aragorn, no additional forces would have marched north to aid Minas Tirith. More that likely, the lords of the southern regions would have done exactly as Imrahil suggested: to retreat to such strong places as they had and there await the final assault.

: Sounds good. : Also, disregarding how much power of command he had over the southern regions, Denethor could have just told them to send those troops that they could spare, since they knew their own need better than any, and didn't try to constrain them to send any more troops than they themselves thought prudent. : -Foradan

Yes. The people of Minas Tirith were disappointed that so little help had come, but it seems likely that it was with Denethor`s approval that the lords held back most of their strength. He wouldn`t have wanted to lose the rest of Gondor while his army was all bottled up in Minas Tirith.

The lords of the southern fiefs came themselves to honour their obligations to the steward, and there`s no evidence that Denethor was dissatisfied with them for what they`d brought him. Besides, whatever these lords wished to do, I doubt if they could have persuaded any of their men to follow them to Minas Tirithif it meant leaving their families defenceless against the Corsairs. Their hands were tied, and Denethor evidently realised this.