The White Council

Last post . . (was Re: An explanation)

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

This will be my last post on the subject, as it appears to have come to be the unwarrented bludgeoning of a deceased, four legged herbivore.

: okies a few things...

: The sun is closer to the earth in the northern hemisphere summer. (snip all science stuff)

This is way off topic, and I only used it as an example that scientists can be wrong. However, the reason that the northern hemisphere and southern hemisphere experience different seasons at different times is because of the tilt of the earth's axis relative to the sun during the elipitical orbit. I should have clarified that Eurpean scientist believed at one point that the sun was closer in the summer, which it is not. The eliptical orbit carries the earth farther from the sun in the summer, but the tilt of the axis allows the northern hemisphere to have more direct sunlight.

: but that has nothing to do with mithril...

: With the mithril thing u are working on a assumption.. that Tolkien knew jack all about Ti.

Actually, I was working from the assumption that was originally brought up which was was that since Earth was supposed to be Arda thousands of years later. From that I didn't care if Tolkien "knew jack all about Ti" but rather answered the question, "Is titanium mithril". Once you step outside and say that ME is just a fiction, rejecting the original assumption of Arda = Earth, then of course all my arguments must fall. I can not argue for Arda being a seperate world from Earth since nothing will equate.

: Tolkien was a writer not a chemist.. so think it is quite reasonable to assume that he based it on Ti.. not only is it doubt full that he knew the process by which the ore was made.. but also the way that Ti is found.

I must point out that BASING mithril on titanium and saying that mithril IS titanium are certainly two different contentions. I agree that it is possible Tolkien based mithril on titanium, I do not agree that mithril IS titanium.

: u Even said u did a lot of research.. now i seriously doubt whether Tolkien would of bothered.

I would not agree to this assertion, since Tolkien was an academic and researched a great many things for his work. Whether he had a specific metal in mind as the base of mithril can only be answered by one man, and he has passed on from this world.

: Also about the earth mythos thing.. sure it might have been a good idea to start with.. or as a guide.. but it doesn't happen in practice...

: i.e the snow in the north.. happened as a result of Morgoth.. not to do with weather patterns etc.. do we have a evil dude i the north and south making it snow??

At the heart/basis of every scientific fact is a kernal of faith. A belief that things occur the way that scientists have theorized or even take as fact. For example, check into the arguments that abounded concerning the nature of light, and the arguments concerning it was a particle or a wave. Currently scientists believe that light is a particle with wave-like characteristics, but only some of the time. This is not to say that I believe that that is an "evil dude in the north and south is making it snow" but rather that "there could be". And without specific evidence to the contrary, the "evil dude" could be controlling the condensation and percipitation factors worldwide. I would say that is improbable, but certainly not impossible.

: also (although thisbit ain't technically good proof) the rivers in many of the maps don't run the way rivers do... they run across flat plains with no high elivated source...

Agreed, the rivers of Arda do have some unique qualities which we can attribute to Tolkien's less then perfect skill as a cartographer.

: as for the process it is quite possible that Aule taught them...

I have never dispted this fact. I only stated that IF they knew the process, then they SHOULD have found more mithril (if mithril = titanium). I would never put anything past a god-figure.

: also as a note.. there are metals that are only found in small area's etc on earth.. there is one that is only found in a mine in germany or something.. there are a few others in that catagory.. they part of the f block...

However, this is not the case with titanium. As I have stated in numerous posts, titanium is listed as number 9 in abundance, gold, on the other hand (which is easier to mine and refine) is listed as number 75. My premise has always been that if the dwarves knew the process for refining mithril (if mithril = titantium) then more mithril would have been found. This, of course, is discounted if we use the "powerful hand" theory. There is no argument against divinity.

: it is quite possible that Tolkien used Ti as his metal.. but heard about on of these.. and combind the two.. having the metal Ti.. with the occurance of a diff metal.. to make it more special.

I would agree with that premise. I only agrued against the direct relationship of mithril being titanium, not that Tolkien based mithril on any one (or a combination of) metal.

My entire argument stems from these things:

1- Arda = Earth

If we do not agree to this, then my discussion falls completely, as I based the rest of my arguments on this being an "agreed upong fact".

2- No divine/powerful hand created the veins of mithril.

If a divine/powerful hand created the veins of mithril (whether intentionally or inadvertanty) then very few people can argue against the next point.

3- Mithril = Titanium

If we discount the divine/powerful hand of #2, and agree to #1, and believe tht #3 is also true, then the following is also true:

4- The dwarves knew the process for extracting/refining titanium.

While this is a complex process, I would never put it out of the reach of the dwarves to have either been taught or discovered on their own. However, this does lend us the problem of:

5- Titanium is ninth in abundance within the Earth's crust.

If all the other points are accepted, then here is where #3 fails utterly. Of course, if you reject any of the previous points then #3 can stand or fall depending on your point of view. But if you agree up to this point, then #5 is the nail in the coffin of the mithril = titanium theory, because mithril was only found in Khazad Dum and Numenor, and it should have been found in more places then the dwarves found gold (as stated previously gold is far less abundant then titanium) and since the dwarves desired mithril greatly (not that others didn't) they would have found as many ore deposits as possible, which should not have been a difficult task.

Well, that's all i have to say on this matter. As I stated at the begining, I no longer wish to beat this dead horse. If anyone wants to continue the debate, feel free to email me, otherwise this is my last post.

-RR