The White Council

Re: Your Answers to Shagrat Questions

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : My thoughts. : : 1. Yes, it does sound like the troops grumbling about a change in plans.

: : 2. The problem with Gollum in Mordor could be just a mistake in Tolkien's chronology. Then again, Gollum might not have been completely truthful in what he told Gandalf. It is possible that after his capture Gollum had been leaving Mordor to seach for the Ring at Sauron's behest. This would be a way for Sauron to search with showing his hand, so to speak. Of course, Gollum would have no intention of returning to Mordor with the ring. He may have been captured on one of quests to find "the Baggins" and "the Shire". : : ~Aelmer

Good thought here: Gollum went out searching a time or two, with some type of compulsion to make him return to report, although I find that hard to buy: Gollum wanted the Ring for himself, I can't imagine him doing Sauron's dirty work. Sauron may have tried to "put a tail on Gollum" (another possible role for Grishnakh), but I doubt he had much troube eluding an orc. The UT account says that Sauron wasn't aware that his enemies knew of Gollum until he learned Gandalf had entered Mirkwood shortly after someone unidentified man brought Gollum there, which makes me wonder about the MIA (Mordor Intelligence Agency). They were investigating the Smaug affair, knew Bilbo had been acquainted with the dwarves. Surely they'd discover that Gandalf was on the scene of the Battle of Five Armies, indeed went straight there right after the White Council assault on Dol Guldur. What could be so important???

: My two cents:

: (1) The feeling that something is slipping was indeed probably primarily a reaction to the early assault on Gondor. Other contributing factors would be the raid led by Faramir deep in what was thought to be controlled territory and the reports of spies on the stairs.

: (2) Grishnakh obviously knew a great deal more than was good for him. The idea that he captured Gollum is an interesting way to explain that.

: (3) I agree with Aelmer that you might just have a minor inconsistency in the TY. However, an 18 month delay in sending the Nazgul after the Ring can be explained. Sauron sent an emmisary to Erebor to inquire after Bilbo. This emissary (who sounds alot like a nazgul) : met with both Dain and Brand at least twice each. Dain then sent Gimli and Gloin to Rivendell. Sauron also was mobilizing for the WR. It probably took a substantial amount of time to assemble the forces (in secret) for a surprise attack used as cover for the Nazgul. Remember also that the Nazgul had a problem crossing water, so taking the bridge at Osgiliath was a necessity. Sauron was most likely being methodical - first verifying Gollum's story with the Erebor emmisary, then planning and executing the attack on Osgiliath that allowed the Nazgul to cross the Anduin.

Right, this I can buy, especially since, until Gandalf went to Mirkwood, Sauron had no reason to think his enemies knew anything about the Ring being found, unless (as above) he pondered on Gandalf's presence at Erebor. I wonder if, in the methodical investigations, he might have sent agents to the Gladden Fields area, to verify Gollum's tale that this is where Thief Baggins might be found, thus eliminating those months the Nazgul lost on their ride. (Personally, I think Gandalf was a fool to agree that Frodo could wait until late September to depart, whether or not he'd heard of the Nazgul. Get out of there now, dudes!)