The White Council

Re: Your Answers to Shagrat Questions

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

Well, my writing teachers always said "revise, revise, revise." Clearly, i don't do that often enough in my posts here.

: ...which makes me wonder about the MIA (Mordor Intelligence Agency). They were investigating the Smaug affair, knew Bilbo had been acquainted with the dwarves. Surely they'd discover that Gandalf was on the scene of the Battle of Five Armies, indeed went straight there right after the White Council assault on Dol Guldur. : : What could be so important???

: Reestablishing the Kingdom under the Mountain. In Appendix A, Gandalf reveals his motivations in precipitating the Dwarves' quest. He wanted to neutralize Smaug and establish a strong presence in northern Wilderland, in preparation for the WR. Although the Dragon had been slain, the principals were about to embark upon a disastrous conflict over the spoils. It was some time before even Gandalf suspected the true nature of the Ring.

Yeah, this is all true. Gandalf went north after Dol Guldur to look in on the quest he'd set in motion, for the reasons you mention, it had a greater "world-historical" importance. He found the good guys were quarrelling: he couldn't know this would happen, but, knowing the personalities of Thorin and Thranduil (I suspect he wasn't acquainted with Bard), he probably suspected they'd have problems working together. Actually, my point was not, why was Gandalf at the battle, but what conclusion would Sauron draw, if, after learning Bilbo had the Ring (from Gollum), and learning he was at Erebor with the dwarves (how did he learn this? Gollum knew nothing of the dwarves. So the MIA is effective at times: I suspect that Sauron would want to know as much as possible about this other blow to his plans occurring suspiciously also in 2941), looking closely at the event, he also discovers that Gandalf was there. Hmm, he'd say, the Ring was there, in the possession of a none-too-discreet Hobbit, and so was one of the chiefs of his enemies. Even if he had no reason to suspect a prior aquantanceship of Bilbo and Gandalf, he might conclude that Gandalf's curiosity would be drawn to this strangely-lucky Hobbit and so somehow learn of the Ring. All this is speculation, but I've thought a lot about when did Sauron know what. In _Unfinished Tales_, JRRT seems to imply that Sauron didn't think Gandalf knew of the Ring until he was observed entering Mirkwood, March 3017, shortly after Aragorn (Sauron wouldn't know who this man was) had brought captive Gollum there: hence his haste in sending out the Nazgul when he had dithered up until then.)

: : (snip) ...I wonder if, in the methodical investigations, he might have sent agents to the Gladden Fields area, to verify Gollum's tale that this is where Thief Baggins might be found, thus eliminating those months the Nazgul lost on their ride.

: I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. How would investigating the Gladden Fields help in finding the Shire? Personally, I believe that the GF area would have been investigated while Sauron was at Dol Guldur.

In _Unfinished Tales_, Tolkien suggests that Gollum had dared to deceive Sauron: under torture he lied and said that he thought Bilbo's homeland was near his own, the Gladden Fields. Because of this deception, Sauron first had the Nazgul investigate that area, losing precious months (which Frodo squandered, hanging out in the Shire). The deception on closer examination, sounds unconvincing. You mention one reason: while at Dol Guldur, Sauron had ample chances to check out the Gladden Fields area (news that he was doing so was a reason Saruman gave in to Gandalf's urgings that the White Council attack Dol Guldur. Another his geographical: Gollum's tunnel under the Misty Mountains is hardly on the road from the Gladden Fields to Erebor.

: :(Personally, I think Gandalf was a fool to agree that Frodo could wait until late September to depart, whether or not he'd heard of the Nazgul. Get out of there now, dudes!)

: Hindsight is 20/20, but you have to remember that Gandalf did not want Frodo attracting any attention. At the time, the inevitable rumors that would have accompanied a Bilbo-style disappearance seemed far more dangerous than moving slowly and carefully. Also, Gandalf clearly intended to accompany Frodo, or at the very least have Aragorn along.

This is true. No immediate disappearance that April, but waiting until September? Late June, July seem time enough to set up the cover story and do the move. Well, it does make for an exciting story...without his trials on the road to Rivendell, would Frodo have had the strength and wisdom to carry out the main mission?