The White Council

Re: Elven textiles and crop production

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : Er, no, they obviously COULD practice wide-scale agriculture, : : unless you feel they were running around without any clothes : : on. : : I'm not an expert on Elven clothing, but if you are suggesting : that they made textiles using natural fibers - cotton, jute, : flax, hemp, etc. - I'm not sure I would consider this large : scale agriculture. These plants are also not typically found in : temperate areas such as Doriath and Northern Mirkwood but are : generally sub-tropical, although certain plants do lend : themselves to translocation so I suppose its possible the Elves : could have brought plants from further south.

Cotton originated in southern Asia, India, I believe. But Flax was found in Europe and imported to (or found in) the northern United States. Linen has long been a major source of fiber for Europeans.

However, the Elves of Lorien, at least, used Hithlain, and we don't know anything of its origins (although it seems very likely the plants they used grew as far north as Mithrim, since the grey cloaks seem to have first been woven there).

And the Elves had to practice enough agriculture to feed and clothe themselves. Even as recently as the early 19th century, most farms were only productive enough to support themselves and provide a little surplus. 9 out of 10 people in the United States lived on farms (and/or plantations) when this country first achieved its independence.

The Midwest, still a very productive farming region, was once a heavily forested region, and it still supports a lot of woodlands. Farmers moved in and colonized the region in the 19th century.

More than 1,000,000 native Americans supported themselves in the thick woodlands of eastern North America and they practiced widespread agriculture in addition to their hunting practices. In fact, their cultures might have offered some inspiration for Tolkien's Wood-elves.

: However, for a forest-dwelling people I would expect clothing : more along the lines of leather garments (the forest being a : good place to hunt) with perhaps the wealthier elves wearing : finer clothes.

Legolas's clothing was a mixture of green and brown hues. The brown might very well imply leather, but then leather doesn't come only from game animals.

: : Doriath and northern Mirkwood supported large populations. : : Just because the Elves were living in the woods, however, : : doesn't mean they couldn't raise crops. Farming in thick : : woodlands has been practiced for millennia.

: Farming in woodlands requires an immense expenditure of manual : resources. The Iroquois practiced this for generations with : corn crops, but agriculture alone could not support them; : hunting and fishing still accounted for 60% of their diet.

Incorrect, as far as farming in woodlands goes. Early European farmers practiced slash-and-burn farming and increased their populations just nicely. The Iroquois, like other peoples, employed a varied diet (and there is no passage in Tolkien which implies the Elves didn't eat fish -- we already know most of them were capable of hunting).

Would Tolkien's Elves practice slash-and-burn? I can't say. I suspect they had alternatives available to them that the Native Americans didn't.

: I'm not saying its impossible for the Elves of Mirkwood and : Doriath to have practiced farming, I just think it impractical. : It would have been much easier to simply import grains from : other areas in which they could be more easily grown.

It would be quite practical for them to support themselves through farming. Just because you're in the middle of a huge forest doesn't mean you can't farm, or that there's a tree on every square inch of soil. Real forests have many open areas in them, often as a result of natural fires.

: Or perhaps the Elves maintained farming communities along the : borders of the forests. I don't recall such a thing being : mentioned about Thranduil's kingdom in The Hobbit, but : its not beyond the realm of possibility. And Doriath in : particular had large areas of open land both to the east and : south.

All we see of Thranduil's kingdom are the road through the forest, the feasting sites, his underground halls, and one village along the river edge. There is plenty of room in Mirkwood, however, for farms, including by that village on the forest river.

And Doriath's farms could just as easily have been located deep in the woods, especially along the river edge.