The White Council

Re: Elves did eat and farm, because they had to

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : : The Noldor didn't seem to function at all closely with : : : : nature.

: : : Sure they did. They were the masters, it was the slave. :)

: : This goes directly to my point. It is possible to say that : : some Elves in Middle Earth are "woodsy" but not all of them by : : any stretch. So why do some people think that there is a : : strong Elf-Nature connection? I surmise that it is from : : outside influences. If the only Elf a person ever heard, read : : or knew about was a Tolkien Elf I don't think that that person : : would think them so "naturey".

: Most of the Elves encountered in Tolkien's stories are wood-elves of one sort or another. Beleg and Mablung, both Sindarin Elves of Doriath, were essentially Wood-elves. Thingol and Luthien and all their people would count as Wood-elves.

: I think it's understandable that many people feel the Elves were somehow closer to nature than Men. Add to the above information the fact that the Elves (unlike Men, such as the Numenoreans) seem never to be associated with massive deforestations, and I think people have plenty of reasons to think of them as being more sensitive to nature.

: Tolkien portrays the Elves as meddling with nature in ways Men cannot, and therefore I think some greater "attunement" is to be expected. Hence, some of them (like the Green-elves of Ossiriand) become very sensitive, but others (like the Noldor) become rather arrogant and possessive.

: The Noldor of Eregion, of course, went the farthest in their arrogance by trying to halt Time (or at least slow it down) so that they could enjoy Middle-earth for many more ages than they naturally should have.

: So I think it's important to remind people that the Noldor dug mines, built stone cities, smelted and forged metals, carved rock, etc., and that the Sindar did their own share of cutting down trees (Cirdan's cities were both made of wood before the Noldor showed up), etc.

: Maybe the Elves were responsible for some natural disasters. It's hard to say. But if they were, they were probably more capable of cleaning them up and perhaps more likely to take responsibility for such things.

So now you are arguing that Tolkien's Elves ARE nature-boys? Do you ever agree with anyone or do you see it as your obligation (as site proprietor) to keep the debate going? I was agreeing with you, that the opinion of Elves being completely in harmony with nature was misguided. I was just wondering how some people have fashioned the idea within themselves that Elves are non-eating, non-farming, non-hunting naturalists. If you note, I also said that there is a certain closeness between Elves and nature (as you have also illustrated above) but that others have taken it too far in this thread.