The White Council

Re: What constitutes evil in Tolkien's creation?

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

This has to be my last statement for a few days.

: : Except that the Elves of Eregion tried to halt the flow of : : Time in Middle-earth, to preserve it as a "desert" (as : : Tolkien put it), to make it their canvas on which they could : : practice their art. And because of that folly many fair : : things were lost or destroyed.

: However, crucially they attempted these things not in a spirit : of spite, that is their intention was not to corrupt in order : to affront Eru, who had ordained the mutability of Middle : Earth, but they wished to preserve their own creations and : culture in aspic as it were. Their actions may have caused Eru : and the Valar grief, but it was not their avowed intention to : do so. This is in very sharp contrast to the intent of Melkor : and his minions. Therefore, whatever the practical outcome of : their actions the Elves were not indulging in any of the : "primary evils" of Tolkien's creation which I identified : earlier.

"Nothing is evil in the beginning." Not even Melkor. Melkor became nihlistic only after uncounted ages. The Elves were but a breath in his lifetime.

What the Elves did was wrong, and they drew the Dunedain into a terrible war without fully explaining its causes. When the Elves of the late Third Age go about claiming they have their own sorrows, it is unlikely they are referring to the war of the Silmarils. The late Third Age Middle-earth turned out the way it did largely because of the Elves.

: : Would the Numenoreans still have fallen under the Shadow if : : they had not gone back to Middle-earth in might and seen how : : strong they were become?

: : Would Numenor still have rebelled against the Valar if Sauron : : had not forged the One Ring and used it to corrupt them?

: I'm not sure of the relevance of these questions. Though Elves : and Men were capable of what one would call conventionally evil : acts, there is a distiction between this and people and races : who are fundamentally evil. The Numenoreans were suborned by : pride, sometimes a sin within Tolkien's corpus (Aragorn was : proud , though pride wedded to compassion and duty is arguably : a virtue in Tolkien), but not, I would argue one of the : fundamental ones. Once again the Numenoreans were not invading : Valinor principally in order to corrupt or desolate it (though : this would have been a by-product) they invaded to attain : immortality, a "gift" they had been deluded into thinking had : been denied to them by capricious acts of Eru and the Valar. : Their chief motive was therefore not spite or a desire to : dominate (though they had shown evidence of the latter evil : within ME).

The intent to seize immortality was just as bad (or worse, even) than the intent to hold back Time. Iluvatar was forced to intervene. That's pretty serious stuff. Nothing Melkor did resulted in a direct intervention by Iluvatar.

And the Kings Men who survived went on to become the Black Numenoreans. How should we rate them on the scale of "good" peoples?

Being an Elf did not ensure one would be good, any more than being of Numenorean blood gave such assurances.

: : The Elves set themselves on the same path as Melkor. That : : they were brought up short by Sauron's treachery doesn't : : excuse them.

: : Tolkien wrote about the tragedy of the fall of the Elves. : : They suffered two falls, in fact. And both falls had : : devastating consequences not only for them but for many : : others.

: : They had the freedom to make choices and in doing so made : : some bad choices. This paradigm opposes the concept of : : "fundamentally good" and "fundamentally evil" races.

: The paradigm of fundamental good and evil is not perfect, : though it Tolkien's world appears this way at the surface. In : reality what Tolkien gives us are beings and races which have : free will and usually a tendancy towards acting for good ends : but are capable of evil, contrasted with beings and races who : have lost or been deprived of free will and are unable to : refrain from evil acts.

Agreed. But this discussion arose out of my criticism of Terry Pratchett's statement that there are "Good" races and "Bad" races in Tolkien. Because Free Will prevails, his observation cannot be held true. The Orcs have been dominated by Sauron and Morgoth, but even they resent their masters and would rather be free of them.

: The distiction is subtle, and I think would not occurr to many : readers who do not reflect on such matters.

Not on the first read, perhaps, but Pratchett's "modern readers" are not simple-minded fools incapable of seeing more deeply into the story, or unwilling to reread it and discover something new.

: In the first case would be the majority of the Ainur, and the : races of Elves, Men, Hobbits, Ents and Dwarves etc. Capable, : through the action of free will of acts of folly and outright : evil, but not fundamentally aligned to evil.

: In the second case would be Melkor and his Ainur followers, who : it is arguable renounced the option of doing good and therfore : curtailed their access to free will. The measure of : self-reinforcement of evil acts and their heady attraction for : these beings must have been very great indeed. It could be : argued that after the War of Wrath Sauron may have made genuine : attempts at self-reform though he was apparently "too steeped : in blood" for his attempt to be sucessful.

Tolkien did make such an argument, saying that Sauron was truly overwhelmed by the defeat of Morgoth.

: Also in this case would be the most tragic of Tolkien's : creatures , the Orcs, Trolls, Dragons etc. For these races the : lack of access to free will was, aparently, not chosen by them : in the first place but constrained upon them by the nature of : their creation (or corruption). These creatures were : fundamentally evil.

But they did not totally lose their free will. They were corrupted, and the fact of their corruption shows they are not fundamentally or inherently bad. It required an outside force to bring them to that state.

: : And they build communities, roads, heal one another, defend : : each other, establish customs and traditions...all very much : : the same as the Elves and Men. It was the Elves who sought : : to hold back Time, not the Orcs. Whose evil was greater?

: Communities of extreme psychopaths and sociopaths would be : impossible. In order to function orcs must have had some : ability for social organisation. Likewise, the Aztecs were, on : the whole, kind to their children and respectfull of their : laws. Though I would say that, with their penchant for : sacrificing tens of thousands of victims a year in a most cruel : manner, their society was in some ways distinctly evil.

And what of Elladan and Elrohir, who went hunting Orcs for centuries after their mother had departed over Sea? Revenge may not be evil in Tolkien, but seeking revenge is what got the Elves into the deepest trouble in the first place.

: : The Orcs were enslaved by Dark Lords. The Elves chose to do : : evil.

: : One must conclude that the Elves were the fundamentally evil : : race if there was indeed such a concept in Tolkien.

: The Elves were not, as I have argued above, indulging in either : of Tolkien's fundamental evils. The orcs in contrast could not : do anything other than indulge in spite destruction and : domination.

Tolkien's fundamental evils? Tolkien's evils included the kinslayings, the Rings of Power, the willful destruction of peoples and artifacts for purely selfish reasons. Feanor was undoubtedly the most evil Elf to ever live. Which Orcs committed sins comparable to Feanor's?

And the Orcs seemed very capable of pursuing things other than spiteful destruction and domination. Clearly the Moria Orcs who followed the Fellowship weren't doing anything that Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas didn't set out to do.

As I said. If we are to look for inherently evil races, the Elves fit the bill much better than the Orcs. That is the flaw with Pratchett's statement. At the very best he has it backwards. At the very least he simply has it wrong.