The White Council

Re: Orcs redeemed?

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

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: : It seems to me that physical appearance would indeed have a rofound effect on the orcs. This arguement reminds me of a discussion I had in uni two years ago . . .

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: But what we are discussing here is the inherent nature of orcs, whether they do good versus evil, not how others perceive them. i have no illusions that the physical nature of orcs would limit their inclusion among the other races. My question was concerning the viablity of orcs to reject their chose evil nature and redeem themselves by leading what would be considered a "good" life for the remainder of their days.

: : Another observation may be made of the germans, who have never lived down the shame of the nazi regime, or the holocausts. : : Europe has had to go to war on a horrific scale twice in one decade because of Germany. And EVERYONE knows it.

: Ummm, actually, I would suggest you review your history. The first World War began as a small and localized war between several of the slavic nations who had alliances with Euopean powers. Because these alliances were kept secret, Europe was dragged into the war. Germany was simply adhering to its alliance treaty, it was certainly NOT the agressor of WWI. The root causes of WWII are borne out through the beginging of WWI and the Treaty of Versailles which made Germany agree to stipulation that it HAD caused the war and pay outrageous reparations to the other nations. Because of the Treaty of Versailles (and a few other economic reasons) Germany was left in a deep depression. This atmosphere of poverty allowed for the rise of one Adolph Hitler whos program stemmed from two points, giving the Germans someone to blame, and restoring German Pride. That Germany was the agressor of WWII can not be in question, but the reasons for that agression rose out of the aftermath of WWI and there Germany was hardly at fault. They simply lost the war and had to suffer the consequences.

Granted, but not EVERYONE knows that. Most of history is taught flawed, and the world wars are certainly no exception. And if you read about the german leadership pre WW1 then it is obvious that any pretext is good enough. But my point was not so much that the germans are responsible, rather that they know that every one else knows. I have met many germans, ( I am anglo-danish )and I have often been told ( By those of my generation ) that they always feel a deep shame, when ever they are together with people of other nationalities. It strikes me that orcs are very badly placed for any hope of reconciliation, and that is what I meant.

: : The germans however have recovered, despite this. I could wonder if this is because they are not black, or is it because they are well placed in Europe.

: I'm not certain where you have your information, but Germany is not (nor is any other European nation) exclusively white. The stereotype of blond haired blue eyed Germans may play a fault here, but it is certainly not the case.

They are certainly not African black!!

: : The orcs are a primative, brutal people, weighed down by ugliness, and hideous cultural crimes. I rather think they would be wiped out by the other peoples, or at least forced to live in far off, isolated communities.

: Orcs are hardly primative as they created machines such as those at Isengard.

It depends on your personal out look. Building an atomic bomb is hardly my idea of civilisation.

That they are brutal can not be contested. But certainly elves, dwarves and humans could be labelled the same. That they are "weighed down by ugliness, and hideous cultural crimes" is certainly neither represented by Tolkien's text. Elves, dwarves and humans within the context of Tolkien have all comitted some rather grevious "cultural crimes".

So why do all the other races fear and/or hate them ?

: But then my question was not concerning orcs on the whole, as certainly it would be easier for the majority to simply continue as they were (social inertia being what it is). however, my question was concerning the individual orc, no longer under the corrupting influence of Sauron. Could individual orcs turn away from their previously chosen path and redeem themselves?

: I'm not certain that they could, but I would like to hear a discussion on whether it was probable or not.

: -RR

Well I think that they could, and if left alone by the elves, humans and dwarfes, probably would. But I imagine that it would take quite a few number of decades.

I think that if they were able to live in a more open climate, then their chances would improve quite a lot, but living under mountains must hamper their potential quite a lot. Jan