The White Council

Re: Suite101 Article: Middle-earth Connections: Lore of the Rings

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : They would not die of old age, however. Instead of aging, : : they would be ageless, but their spirits would still desire : : to leave their bodies at the appropriate time, and incapable : : of doing so would be tormented. Tolkien in fact suggested : : that the Men would become like zombies in Aman.

: I assume you are referring to Letter 131 (top page 155 and : note) where Tolkien likens the effect of the Ring on mortals : to the effect of setting foot on Aman on : mortals? "...prolongation in time is like stertching a wire : out even tauter, or 'spreading butter even thinner' - it : becomes an unbearable torment"

Actually what I had in mind was the "Aman" essay in MORGOTH'S RING, in the "Myths Transformed" section. But I suppose we may be stumbling onto one of Tolkien's shifting ideas. If he changed his mind later in life, we run into the context issue again.

I don't have time to research it tonight.

: : I don't think that is what Elvish psychology is about. They : : seem to spend much of their time "creating" (or "sub- : : creating"), devoting their energies to inner goals rather : : than external ones. "Perfection of mind and body" probably : : means something different to an Elf from what it means to a : : Man, but it would seem to be in their nature to inherently : : pursue that -- to always strive to achieve their fullest : : potential. So many Men don't do that it cannot be said to : : be in our nature to do so.

: : To an Elf, Time is a finite line, not an infinite or eternal : : path. To a man Time is all one and the same with whatever : : lies outside of it. Men will continue. Elves have no idea : : of what will happen to them. All they know is that when : : Time comes to its inevitable end, they will die, and that : : death will not be the same as the death of the body. What : : happens to their spirits then?

: Man argued the reverse. Men argued that it was they who could : not know their fate. Elves at least *knew* they would go to : Aman.

But Aman was not the end. Of course, what Tolkien was saying was that both Elves and Men were facing a great unknown. They just weren't facing it at the same time. And the Elves felt that Men had a better guarantee of continued existence.

: : The invisibility is related to the spiritual aspects of the : : purposes the Elves were trying to achieve. They wanted to : : see the spirits of Elves (apparently) who had not gone to : : Aman. That would be the choice of Elves who had faded. The : : psychology of the Rings is bound up in what the Elves : : feared. The psychology of the One Ring is a combination of : : the Elves' fears and what Sauron desired (domination).

: Where do you get that? In Letter 131 Tolkien specifically : ascribes the door to the spiritual world (aka invisiblity) : as "more directly derived from Sauron" It wasn't and Elven : element in the Rings. Not surprisingly the Three didn't have : this effect.

I'm not saying the invisibility WASN'T derived from Sauron. The Elves needed Sauron to achieve that power. What I'm saying is that Sauron could not have sneaked it in for some nefarious purpose. He probably had a nefarious purpose that was never realized. But that nefarious purpose would have had to benefit from a benign aspect of the invisibility powers.

But the Elves had to desire the invisibility and power over the unseen. These were powers they knew about (so the letter implies). These were powers they wanted.

: : : One final comment. I do not think the Rings of Power could : : : restore an Elf to life. That is beyond the power of the : : : Children of Iluvatar. Indeed, it is beyond the normal : : : power of the Valar. Manwe and Mandos were given the power : : : to reincarnate disembodied fear as a dispensation from : : : Iluvatar.

: : And Sauron was NOT given dispensation to halt the effects of : : Time, but he did. The Elven Rings might very well have been : : intended to raise the dead. Necromancy was, after all, one : : of Sauron's avocations.

: "...the Three Rings were precisely endowed with the power of : preservation, not of birth." Letter 144.

I'm not talking about birth. I'm talking about raising the dead (with the ELVEN Rings -- i.e., the Seven and the Nine, not just the Three). These Rings conferred power over the Unseen, and they gave power according to the measure of the wearer. Hence, in the hands of a healer, one of the Rings might indeed have enabled an Elf to restore another Elf to life. That is pure speculation, but nothing in Tolkien seems to contradict it.