The White Council

Re: Anduin

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : Fortunately, Middle-earth is not medieval Europe. :) : : : The problem is that most of Eriador WAS a wasteland. It was : : : largely depopulated. So an average of 1 person per square : : : mile is not necessary. And your numbers are way too high : : : for at least some of the entries. Tharbad was no more than : : : a "town" by the time it was abandoned. 20,000 people : : : constitute a city's population. 50,000 Dunedain could have : : : fielded a pretty decent army. So why did Halbarad only show : : : up with 30 Rangers?

: : Tharbad would have had a halo of surrounding villages and : : farms to survive and was probably the centre of a tiny : : kingdom/chieftainship - towns don't just appear on their own, : : there has to be a structure and economic system around - 20k : : represents the remnants of the town (say 5,000) and the : : farmers and villagers up and down the Gwathlo basin

: 20,000 is way too many people. Tharbad was well past its prime when the town was abandoned. Had there truly been that many people living there, Tolkien would have had them re-establish the town. Tharbad dwindled over the course of many centuries (and the process of dwindling continues even today -- towns and cities are constantly growing or shrinking).

Please reread what I said, I do not claim THARBAD had 20,000 inhabitants, maybe 3 or 4,000 at its ruin. My point is that towns do not exist 'in isolation' - Tharbad would have been the centre of a small collection of villages and farms - to feed the populace that would have (imho) stretched up and down the Gwathlo basin - and that the survivors of Tharbad would have settled in these villages once the 'city' itself was ruined - perhaps 20k is too high, but 10 to 15 I could live with.

: : 30 were all that could be mustered in haste from the lengths : : and breadths of Eriador. I don't think the prof really expects : : us to believe that a handful of Dunedain could really have : : survived 1100 years alone in the wilderness without destroying : : the gene pool or perishing.

: Halbarad did not say he gathered his company from all over Eriador. It would have taken weeks for him to find and bring in 30 Rangers if they were really scattered all over the north.

: And, no, Tolkien never implied their population was always small. Rather, he stated they DWINDLED. Their numbers gradually became less and less as the centuries passed.

This doesn't make sense - why dwindle? Populations tend to increase over time, not decrease... : : 50,000 - 25,000 women, 10,000 children and elderly, 15,000 men : : of mixed race (maybe 1500 Dunedain) half would farm, a quarter : : would be craftsmen/millers/bakers etc. A quarter left as : : possible soldiers - 3750, of these only pure Dunedain would : : likely be in the 'royal' rangers - 375, half away on : : missions/defence leaving 180 or so - 30 from this is pretty : : good in haste......

: Aragorn's people were supposedly ALL pure Dunedain. 50,000 is simply way too many. More likely they numbered fewer than 10,000, and there is no indication they had the full range of professions among them.

Must have had - how would they live otherwise? They couldn't exactly advertise their existence by extensive trade networks could they?? OK numbers too high, but 10,000 is a little smaller than I can live with.

: : : He says whole populations died out. That's very specific.

: : Yes, from a probable pre-split(say 861-1409) population of 2 : : million or so - three quarters dead would indicate whole : : populations dying out.

: "Probable"? How do you justify "probable" and "three quarters"? You're just tossing out assumptions.

Yes, and as there is no canon, I have to give my thoughts here. 2 Million is based on a succesful large realm with the size taken into consideration - 2 mill populates the land but does not overflood it with people - Eriador is VERY large.

: : : No, they still needed to live, and they appear to have done : : : just fine on their own. Most (if not all) of the raiding : : : occurred at times when Sauron (or his servants) wanted : : : something done.

: : Why raid a wilderness?

: Given that they sought out the enclaves rather than the wilderness, your question doesn't address the issue.

: : : : The Greenfields is a fairly minor engagment and only part : : : : of a wider invasion...

: : : That was an unusual event, and not representative of typical : : : Orc activity.

: : No, but it specifcally says that they invade and there is : : trouble for the Eriadorians - indicating a population base : : there.

: On one occasion.

But indicating an eriadorian presence nonetheless

: : To be honest, the nadir for Eriador has to be the fall of : : Arthedain and the 50 years afterwards - whatever is left after : : this must necessarily increase due to the nature of : : reproduction

: There were further periods of decline, including the Long Winter, the Fell Winter, and other periods. And the Dunedain, at least, most likely continued to decline as their men were more likely to die violent deaths.

No, this is untrue - a hidden race other than the rangers themselves - therefore less likely to die an unnatural death. Rangers would NOT constitute the majority profession of these peoples - that does not and cannot work on any level Don Q