The White Council

Re: Re Anduin (and now a side point on Hobbit Numbers)

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : Reference Hobbits : : You can't be serious, how few Hobbits have you got there. Look : : at the size of the Shire - it is intensively farmed, totally : : peaceful and has no wilderness in it - it cannot possibly have : : less than 150,000 Hobbits barest minimum in it - I doubt there : : is anywhere there you could walk for a few miles without : : seeing a farm, village or town.

: Um, this would be the same Shire where Frodo, Sam, and Pippin wandered for miles without coming across a town or farmhouse, where Bilbo would go walking through the woods, where the Tooks ambushed the Ruffians from the woods, where Frodo, Sam, and Pippin met a company of Elves on a dark country road with no one else (but the local Nazgul) around?

The Shire is primarily an agrarian/countryside area - you can walk through the Norfolk Fens in England for ages without seeing anyone, but its got a good population. Frodo did not want prying eyes watching him go - they kept to little used roads - otherwise they would have ploughed straight alone the Great East. 'Cross-Country'

: If you look at Tolkien's Shire map, you'll see huge expanses of countryside between the towns to the north and south of the Road.

Yes, becuase only towns are shown, not all farms/hamlets etc etc. Unless we are expected to believe that Hobbit food grew itself and there were no dwellers outside the (20 or so) named towns

Remember, Hobbit society was developed enough to have lawyers, silver spoonware, craftsmen, millers etc etc - and they had 1400 years of 'relative' peace to expand. There are no 'wilds' in the Shire and they have tamed the whole land - that takes a fair sized population I'm not talking about a big figure here you know, 100-200,000 is tiny compared to Gondor and probably to the Late T.A Dale/Esgaroth 'empire' : : Hobbiton/Bywater - 'every day was someones birthday' - what : : are the chances of that being precise? Nil. Population = 1000 : : being overly cautious. One of many towns we know of, all prob. : : similar sizes. throw in farms, surrounding hamlets etc. 25% : : town hobbits, 75% village/rural/farm

: "Nil"?

Yes Nil, unless you really want to quantify the miniscule chance of it being one per day every day - that is the sort of silliness you get in childrens fairy stories, and I hope the Professor wouldn't indulge in such nonsense.

: And "in Hobbiton and Bywater" should include people living outside the towns but close by (like Bilbo and the people on Bagshot Row -- the Hill was actually nestled between Hobbiton and Overhill).

Agreed

: : Pippin brought 100 from Tookland (fighters) in a few hours - a : : larger force went South - Tookland is a very small part of the : : Shire

: Tookland was larger than Hobbiton/Bywater.

Yes, but only a small part of the Shire.

We know that after the scouring, 'there were thousands of willing hands', I will take your comments on board and I will agree your figure of 100,000 but for HOBBITS ONLY - ELves 25-40,000, Dwarves a few thousand or less, Men - OK lets settle on 10,000 Dunedain, 10,000 in Cardolan, 3,000 in Breeland,10,000 in the remants of the Gwathlo/Tharbad area and lets say 100,000 in Dunland/Enedhwaith (which DID have the capacity to overrun Rohan after all......) Thats 133,000 in Eriador itself, 100,000 in Dunland/Enedhwaith and the Elves and Dwarves on the borderlands - I can live with that and still feel Eriador is Desolate and 'empty' - how about you MM?