The White Council

Re: Re Anduin (and now a side point on Hobbit Numbers)

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : Um, this would be the same Shire where Frodo, Sam, and : : Pippin wandered for miles without coming across a town or : : farmhouse, where Bilbo would go walking through the woods, : : where the Tooks ambushed the Ruffians from the woods, where : : Frodo, Sam, and Pippin met a company of Elves on a dark : : country road with no one else (but the local Nazgul) around?

: The Shire is primarily an agrarian/countryside area - you can : walk through the Norfolk Fens in England for ages without : seeing anyone, but its got a good population. Frodo did not : want prying eyes watching him go - they kept to little used : roads - otherwise they would have ploughed straight alone the : Great East. 'Cross-Country'

Frodo, Sam, and Pippin didn't walk through fens. They walked along a major road (it would not have appeared on the map otherwise) for much of their journey until they turned off on a short-cut.

And the hobbit towns weren't that large. The fact that Bilbo was able to accomodate the populations of Bywater and Hobbiton at The Party (which was held next to Bag End) shows that. So there wasn't that much need for farms. The Ruffians were spotted walking through open country just outside Bywater, which was on a major route (the East-West road).

And to sustain a family and provide a little extra food for income, a farm need only cultivate a few acres.

[snip]

: Remember, Hobbit society was developed enough to have lawyers, : silver spoonware, craftsmen, millers etc etc - and they had : 1400 years of 'relative' peace to expand.

Yes, but they also depended on the Dwarves for some of their crafts, not because they couldn't make that stuff themselves, but because the Dwarves did it better and in exchange for food. Although trade with the Dwarves is probably what kept money in circulation in the Shire, the commerce indicates the Hobbits had few specialists of their own.

Also, it only took about 300 Ruffians to keep the Hobbits in line. Even a passive population cannot be too large, or it becomes unmanageable. How much the expanded Shirrifs were able to accomplish isn't clear, but Robin Smallburrow told Sam there were only hundreds, not thousands. Given that the Shire was essentially experiencing Martial Law, it seems unlikely there were more than 30-40,000 Hobbits.

Buckland may have had 2-3,000 Hobbits.

: There are no 'wilds' in the Shire and they have tamed the whole land - that takes a fair sized population : I'm not talking about a big figure here you know, 100-200,000 is tiny compared to Gondor and probably to the Late T.A Dale/Esgaroth 'empire' : : : Hobbiton/Bywater - 'every day was someones birthday' - what : : : are the chances of that being precise? Nil. Population = 1000 : : : being overly cautious. One of many towns we know of, all prob. : : : similar sizes. throw in farms, surrounding hamlets etc. 25% : : : town hobbits, 75% village/rural/farm

: : "Nil"?

: Yes Nil, unless you really want to quantify the miniscule chance of it being one per day every day - that is the sort of silliness you get in childrens fairy stories, and I hope the Professor wouldn't indulge in such nonsense.

: : And "in Hobbiton and Bywater" should include people living : outside the towns but close by (like Bilbo and the people on Bagshot Row -- the Hill was actually nestled between Hobbiton and Overhill).

: Agreed

: : : Pippin brought 100 from Tookland (fighters) in a few hours - a : : : larger force went South - Tookland is a very small part of the : : : Shire

: : Tookland was larger than Hobbiton/Bywater.

: Yes, but only a small part of the Shire.

: We know that after the scouring, 'there were thousands of willing hands', I will take your comments on board and I will agree your figure of 100,000 but for HOBBITS ONLY - ELves 25-40,000, Dwarves a few thousand or less, Men - OK lets settle on 10,000 Dunedain, 10,000 in Cardolan, 3,000 in Breeland,10,000 in the remants of the Gwathlo/Tharbad area and lets say 100,000 in Dunland/Enedhwaith (which DID have the capacity to overrun Rohan after all......) : Thats 133,000 in Eriador itself, 100,000 in Dunland/Enedhwaith and the Elves and Dwarves on the borderlands - I can live with that and still feel Eriador is Desolate and 'empty' - how about you MM?