The White Council

Re: Suite101 Article: Middle-earth Connections: Lore of the Rings

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: ALL the Rings were made FOR Elves, initially? But the Seven : seem to have clearly have been intended for the Dwarves, being : imbued with the ability to increase wealth. And then there is : the poem declaiming which race would get which Rings. I'm : afraid I'm missing your point here. Sorry to be dense. :)

The Seven did not confer the ability to increase wealth -- not before Sauron took them and perverted them. And the poem (the ring-rhyme) was composed afterward, not when the Elves still had all the Rings.

The Elves never intended to give any Rings to the Dwarves.

In letter 131 Tolkien writes: "In the resulting war between Sauron and the Elves Middle-earth, especially in the west, was further ruined. Eregion was captured and destroyed, and Sauron seized many Rings of Power. These he gave, for their ultimate corruption and enslavement, to those who would accept them (out of ambition or greed). Hence the 'ancient rhyme' that appears as the leit-motif of THE LORD OF THE RINGS."

: : Unless the range was effected at the will of the possessor, : : and Gandalf, travelling around the world (and being a : : faithful Ainu), would not have tried to hold back the : : effects of Time for anyone.

: I don't mean to be rude, but that's a ridiculous stretch. Now : you seem to be saying that the 'timelessness' power of a Ring : could extend anywhere from just the wearer alone (or not at : all) to an entire realm, at the Will of the wearer.

There had to be limits. And who is to say that the limits could not be adjusted downward from the maximum?

: : Tolkien stated specifically that the Rings were directly : : responsible for the enclaves where Time seemed to stand : : still. Tolkien never implies anywhere that Elrond and : : Galadriel cast spells. The Rings actually did not need to : : be worn to hold back the effects of Time.

: My choice of the words 'cast spells' was an ill-considered : one; I should have said something like 'used their will upon : their Rings'. I agree that the Rings were used to create the : enclaves where Time seemed to stand still. But to say that : this was an effect of the mere presence of a Ring doesn't : stand up. In addition to my previous example of Gandalf's : wandering with Narya, let me ask this: Did Rivendell cease to : be a timeless place when Elrond went away to the War of the : Last Alliance, until he returned? Was the camp of the Last : Alliance a timeless place while Elrond was there? Did Lorien : cease to be timeless anytime Galadriel travelled to Rivendell : for a meeting of the White Council? Was Rivendell a doubly- : timeless place when Galadriel came to visit Elrond? Were the : Grey Havens timeless at all? If they were, what sort of : criminal does this make of Cirdan to give away that power to : Gandalf?

Elrond doesn't say when he was given Vilya by Gil-galad, but he doesn't seem to have had it for the greater part of the Second Age.

As for the Rings' power to work while not worn, that comes straight from J.R.R. Tolkien, so it certainly "stands up":

   $12 Moreover, those were the days of the Three Rings.  Now, as   is elsewhere told, these rings were hidden, and the Eldar did   not use them for the making of any new thing while Sauron still   reigned and wore the Ruling ring; yet their chief virtue was   ever secretly at work, and that virtue was to defend the Eldar   who abode in Middle-earth [added: and all things   pertaining to them] from change and withering and weariness.   So it was that in all the long time from the forging of the   Rings to their ending, when the Third Age was over, the Eldar   even upon Midlde-earth changed no more in a thousand years than   do Men in ten; and their language likewise.   (From THE PEOPLES OF MIDDLE-EARTH, p. 33) 

: Rhetorical questions, my point being that it just doesn't : stand to reason that the Rings were the source : of 'timelessness', in the sense of it radiating from them.

I'm afraid you'll have to take that up with J.R.R. Tolkien. I can say no more on the subject.