The White Council

Ahab's leg

Tolkien and Inklings Discussion

: : : What I am saying is that the Form IS the Spirit, incarnate. The spirit flees - the form does not exist. The 2 are intrinsically linked, but the spirit rules. : : : They are the same thing in essence - so yes, harm to the physical form is DIRECT harm to the Maia itself - hence 9 fingered Sauron in T.A. : : : However when the spirit flees (the Maia flees if you like in spirit form) - the body no longer exists : : : Am I making sense?? : : : So an irrelevance - no body to destroy IMHO : : : Don Q

: : Yes, you're making sense. We are saying essentially the same thing concerning the existence of Sauron's body (form) after he abandoned it. There would be no form (body) to destroy, since the existence of the form depends on the spirit being within the form.

: Precisely.....

: : As to the form being the spirit, incarnate, and harm to form causing harm to the spirit. I have trouble accepting that. If that were the case, every scrape, cut or bug bite inflicted on Gandalf's body would have harmed his spirit.

: Well, personally, I think that it did to a minimal extent - hence the dangers of taking corporeal form - a scratch would not do much damage, but a severed limb, or a stab would...... : The essence of my thinking is that flesh corrupts, and this is the best way I can find of expressing that danger to 'spiritual' entities..

: : To my knowledge there is only one case where an Aniur's spirit was wedded to its form (body) in such a manner, that was Morgorth's. In his case, it was a punishment for his actions.

: Well, I think Morgoth COULDN'T change form, whereas Sauron could, but whilst taking form was 'melded' with it if you take my meaning - the spirit in flesh

: : I believe Sauron's inability to form a tenth finger was linked directly to his spirit entrapped in the Ring. Sauron's spirit, and all Aniur's, was finite. Whatever form taken, was taken by the whole spirit. Sauron's spirit was not whole. Therefore whatever form was taken, would be incomplete.

: Yes I agree - and the missing finger is a direct corporeal showing of the missing part of his spirit - that in the ring, almost an ironic incarnation on Sauron's part....

: : As an aside, this would explain how Isildur could remove the ring from Sauron's severed finger. Sauron's spirit within the Ring was still in contact with the form of the finger, and thus maintained the finger. : : ~Aelmer

: Yes, and you are almost sounding like an old friend of mine from Greece in my previous life..... Plato was his name as I recall, and he made a lot of sense, he always showed good 'form' : Don Q

I really don't like this interpretation of the missing digit.

I think it is stated that the Istari would be vulnerable through their corporeal forms to the travails and mutability of Middle Earth. This was a deliberate "ploy" on the part of the Valar so that the Wizards would be more sympathetic with and to the people of ME (particularly men who were becoming preponderant), this was vital as the most important part of their work was in providing advice and council for the Free Peoples. So damage to their physical forms would certainly bring them long-lasting pain and impairment.

The parallel between Morgoth's irreperably wounded foot (the result of single combat with a sword wielding Noldor elf) and Sauron's missing digit (the result of the cut of a sword-shard wielding Dunadan) seems complete to me. Morgoth was bound to his physical form, as was the post-Akkalabeth Sauron; like Captain Ahab in Moby Dick their "soul and body had bled into one another". The reason Sauron's reconstituted body lacked a finger was a result of the action of a sword-cut not a mystical connection to the lost Ring.

The idea of the soul of Sauron's finger being within the Ring reminds me of an old and famous British comedy programme (Hancock's Half Hour)where the hapless hero was trying to donate blood. Expecting that a syringe-full would be all that would be taken, he was confronted with the unwelcome news that a pint of blood was required - "but that's allmost an arm-full"! was his shocked reply.