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The Fall of Lennier......why?
- The Fall of Lennier......why?
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The Fall of Lennier......why?
Lexx_Luthor > March 29th, 2004, 10:14 PM
Just wondering if ya'll had any thoughts on what happened to Lennier, his fall from grace so to speak. Its been bothering me.
In the beginning Lennier was super serious religious student, fearing no physical opponent, but by the time of the Brakiri Day of the Dead, he had become a bitter rash afraid to talk to a ghost (Morden's). For me one of the most remarkable things in all the babblesodes was seeing the Evil Morden being honest and truthfull, indeed trying to be helpful, and Lennier in rude Denial. When I saw Morden's newspaper hit the floor I felt instant loss of opportunity. I must see this again.
I think I recall Lennier as going off on some long mission to help him "meditate" after leaving Sheridan to die. Other than that, I don't recall much of Lennier after the Sheridan Incident. What happened to make Lennier go downhill so bad? -
The Fall of Lennier......why?
Feral > March 30th, 2004, 04:22 AM
His all consuming ('perfect') love for Delenn which he always thought he could control but in the end controlled him. It's always a woman's fault!!!!
Don't know about afterwards. Any ideas anyone else? -
The Fall of Lennier......why?
Lexx_Luthor > March 30th, 2004, 07:59 AM
I dunno, I think his "love" for Delenn was a symptom of his ills. I am thinking Lennier just didn't know how to have fun and he went mad trying to repress himself. Further, I would bet the Mbari religion allowed it's followers to have some laughter in their lives, although this may not have been encouraged by the Establishment. Reminds me of an old murder mystery movie taking place in an olde monastery where secret text telling of Jesus laughing was kept hidden, and those that found out were murdered, if I recall this correctly. -
The Fall of Lennier......why?
geordilinka > March 30th, 2004, 10:13 AM
he went of the rails
due to his love of delenn
which let him to let sheridian die
and the last moment he went back to save sheridian
he confessed all to delenn
But the shame was too much so he buggered off
in SIL they rise a toast to the dead and leniar is one of them toasted -
The Fall of Lennier......why?
Arcadia > March 30th, 2004, 02:17 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Lexx_Luthor
I dunno, I think his "love" for Delenn was a symptom of his ills. I am thinking Lennier just didn't know how to have fun and he went mad trying to repress himself. Further, I would bet the Mbari religion allowed it's followers to have some laughter in their lives, although this may not have been encouraged by the Establishment. Reminds me of an old murder mystery movie taking place in an olde monastery where secret text telling of Jesus laughing was kept hidden, and those that found out were murdered, if I recall this correctly.
The Name of the Rose, very good movie, and the book was even better.
----
I didn't realize that Lennier died, I thought he just got in a ship and took off.
I wonder if he felt deep down that humans were inferior to Minbari. His beloved may have disappointed him by becoming part human, but he still loved her. But maybe her preferring a human was too aggravating. This is all conjecture though, I don't remember anything in the show to indicate that he considered Minbari a superior race. -
The Fall of Lennier......why?
Feral > March 31st, 2004, 03:38 PM
According to Delenn, Minbari spend time in temple simply learning how to laugh (season 3?). I agree that Lennier was a little repressed but I think that his love for Delenn was there from the moment they met; first it was a love born of respect and hero-worship but later it changed. I think I always thought that Lennier would crack at some point, I just didn't expect it when it actually happened.
I also didn't realise that Lennier had died. I thought that he just flew away to search for a penance to alleviate his guilt. Forgive the ignorance, but what is SIL? -
The Fall of Lennier......why?
SFfilmfan > March 31st, 2004, 06:32 PM
Hmmm. What is it that makes you think Lennier has fallen?
Obviously, Lennier loved Delenn, and that love was unrequited, but he accepted that Delenn loved Sheridan and wanted to do anything in his power to make Delenn happy. Undoubtedly, this was a difficult position for him to be in, but as far as I can tell, he handled it admirably.
Delenn clearly cares for Lennier and admires his dedication and devotion, but she falls short of acknowledging his love, just as Ivanova fails to acknowledge Marcus' love for her. To do otherwise would be...awkward for her. -
The Fall of Lennier......why?
Arcadia > April 1st, 2004, 12:06 PM
Quote:Originally posted by SFfilmfan
Hmmm. What is it that makes you think Lennier has fallen?
His walking away when Sheridan needed his help shows that Lennier is not as pure of heart as he aimed to be. -
The Fall of Lennier......why?
Feral > April 1st, 2004, 03:43 PM
Nobody's perfect...... -
The Fall of Lennier......why?
Arcadia > April 1st, 2004, 06:19 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Feral
Nobody's perfect......
:lol: -
The Fall of Lennier......why?
Arcadia > April 27th, 2004, 03:25 PM
The Vulcans could be goaded in extreme measures to act contrary to their upbringing.
I wonder if the Minbari had base instincts that were bred out or trained out that became evident when Lennier slipped up. Was the honor of the Minbari a characteristic of the race, or was it like the Vulcans something that they learned in order to damp down cruder intincts. -
The Fall of Lennier......why?
geordilinka > April 28th, 2004, 11:14 AM
you just have to look at the warrior cast to see what a minbari truely is.
the others castes have to learn to control there aggression...ie through temple learning etc -
The Fall of Lennier......why?
Feral > April 28th, 2004, 03:49 PM
Why did Lennier fall?
Lennier loved Delenn. They both knew this and both recognised it's existence while remaining within the boundaries of Minbari social etiquette. Lennier was told that he would betray the Anla-Shok and when talking to Delenn in "Darkness Ascending" you know that he realises (and Delenn suspects) that the only thing that could make him do such a thing would be for the love of Delenn.
He fell because in his heart he could never accept the fact that Delenn would not love him. When he finally realises this he acts instictively and in a moment of insanity he tries to kill Sheridan - the obstacle to the one thing he truly wants. And so he fell from grace, a victim of his own heart and devotion. A tragedy (as the BeeGees would say).
How about this for a new B5-universe story: the Redemption of Lennier; the story of how Lennier fought back from the depths of despair and self-loathing to return as the saviour of the Minbari. I like the sound of that. Assuming, of course, that official B5 dogma hasn't already killed him off. -
The Fall of Lennier......why?
Thomas Veil > June 13th, 2004, 04:42 PM
I believe "SIL" is an abbreviation for the final episode, "Sleeping in Light".
In that episode, the remaining characters raise a toast "To absent friends, in memory still bright." Among those named is Lennier.
I could be wrong, but I don't think that necessarily means Lennier is dead. It could simply mean that he went off into space, and never returned.
BTW, I met Bill Mumy at an SF convention and told him how much I liked Lennier's "send-off". I thought it was a very well-written episode. I mean, think about it. For five years, he'd been heartsick with love for Delenn, and he saw his one chance to have her, and in a moment of supreme weakness, he took it. You can disagree with what Lennier did, but I think almost anyone can understand why he did it.
To my surprise, Mumy did not agree. He thought the whole scene was terribly out of character for Lennier.
I really don't see that. Virtually every character on the show underwent some kind of major change, and for Lennier, it didn't happen until almost the end of the series. To me, it made him a very rich, believable character. -
The Fall of Lennier......why?
Wilwarin > June 14th, 2004, 08:22 PM
I personally thought that what Lennier did was very unlike Lennier. Perhaps I hadn´t read the signs carefully enough, but I couldn´t had ever guessed that he, who respected life more than anything (I mean he even saved Londo!) would intentionally kill a person. I just didn´t see it happening - but I´m not the most observant person in the world. :p
I hadn´t thought that he´d died either. I have understood that line in Sleeping in Light the same way than Thomas Veil ^, that he never returned.. -
The Fall of Lennier......why?
Arcadia > June 15th, 2004, 06:21 PM
I also felt the action was out of character. Beside Lennier's respect for life, he knew how important Sheridan was. -
The Fall of Lennier......why?
Bern > June 15th, 2004, 08:02 PM
I remember discussing this topic some time ago, and thinking how out of character it was for Lennier to have tried to kill Sheridan. I think it was the one thing I really was not happy with in the whole show. I can agree with the theory of Sheridan being his obstacle to getting closer to Delenn only so far. Even if Sheridan weren`t part of the picture, Delenn wouldn`t necessarily reciprocate Lennier`s feelings for her. Of course she loved him but not in the way he wanted. And it seems pretty thin to me that Lennier "snapped". No way. Not after all his training and with his. . . centeredness. I thought it didn`t do that very strong character justice to have him give in like that to a baser instinct. Not at that stage of his life. I remember B5 or someone mentioning that Mumy did not like the way that was handled either, so his reaction to your comments at the convention doesn`t surprise me, Thomas Veil.
I think that because it did happen, we feel we have to come up with some kind of explanation. Even if we think/know it`s not right for Lennier to have acted that way, we can`t rewrite the scene, so we have to come to terms somehow with what we were presented with. I like the moment-of-insanity defense people here have come up with, especially Feral`s comments. Arcadia, I think that`s an interesting comparison you draw between the Minbari and the Vulcans. -
The Fall of Lennier......why?
Lexx_Luthor > June 16th, 2004, 11:16 AM
mmm, I dunno, I like it when characters act out of character, like Vir hoping to see somebody get decapitated someday (Morden) or Vir murdering another man (Emporer). Awsum! Lennier too does something, something we don't expect because of all his training. Maybe its a Xen thing, but its when characters "snap" when things are more interesting, and more believable.
Same thing happened to me one time in 5th grade. I was always quiet and shy and very small dude, but our grade bully was picking on me one morning in class when the teacher was not there. I don't know what happened but I "snapped" and by lunchtime the whole school was talking about me beating up the bully right there in class. I acted out of character, and that is when people talk about it.
More than Lennier's sudden impulse to let Sheridan die (not premeditated I think), I am most entranced by the way Lennier, much earlier, wastes his golden opportunity to talk with the dead Morden for his insights in the Night of Bracurri babblesode. Examination of Lennier's tragic behavior here may show a long brewing problem within Lennier, a failure of socialization that the "training" failed to anticipate. I am thinking that the Religious and Ranger training, by themselves, are not sufficient to mold good character in the long run. Something more is needed. Family? Delenn often talked about her family. Did Lennier? mmm Anyway, Delenn seems to be the only woman Lennier ever knew personally, so there is a problem right there. -
The Fall of Lennier......why?
Bern > June 16th, 2004, 05:16 PM
Good for you for taking care of the bully!
he he
Now why am I suddenly reminded of that scene in A Christmas Story when Ralphie can`t take anymore and gives Scott Farkis what`s coming to him?
Hmm. Well you sure make some interesting points, Lexx. And everything you say makes sense. But it still bothers me that Lennier snapped. -
The Fall of Lennier......why?
Lexx_Luthor > June 20th, 2004, 03:54 AM
Bern::Quote:But it still bothers me that Lennier snapped.
Excellent :tongue: I am sure JMS planned for that reaction.
My fave character is early Sheriden--season 2--where he is confused and lost in the dark, and more than anything I wish JMS had later bumped him off for good, so I could feel the Anger and loss of my fave (the later Sheradin/Delenn "god/godess" feeling I get is another reason why I wish this fate upon Sheridan
). However, I enjoy the way I can identify with the way Garibaldi later whined about Sheridan thinking himself a god, so it worked out pretty good.
I forgot how to spell...Sheriden, Sheridan, or is it Sheridin? Sheridun!!!
Sheridenn :coffee: