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Letter #183 and the Holy War of the Ring

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  • Letter #183 and the Holy War of the Ring
• Letter #183 and the Holy War of the Ring

• Letter #183 and the Holy War of the Ring

  EagleoftheStar > May 25th, 2004, 02:18 AM

  In Letter #183 (Tolkien's notes on W.H. Auden's review) Tolkien discusses the his view that in the War of the Ring (or in any conflict for that matter) those on the "right side" may do evil things, and those on the "wrong side" may do noble things. Nevertheless, there is a "wrong side" in LoTR and a "right side" that is defined by opposition to it.
  (This is my summary of the first part of the letter, I would welcome criticism of it, but the letter itself is too long to quote in its entirety).
  Tolkien goes on to write the following:
  
  In The Lord of the Rings the conflict is not basically about 'freedom', though that is naturally involved. It is about God, and His sole right to divine honour. The Eldar and the Numenoreans believed in The One, the true God, and held worhsip of any other person an abomination. Sauron desired to be a God-King, and was held to be this by his servants; if he had been victorious he would have demanded divine honor from all rational creatures and absolute temporal power over the whole world. So even if in desperation 'the West' had bred or hired hordes of orcs and had cruelly ravaged the lands of other Men as allies of Suron, or merely to prevent them from aiding him, their Cause would have remained indefeasibly right. As does the Cause of those who oppose now the State-God and Marshal This or That as its High Priest, even if it is true (as it unfortunately is) that many of their deeds are wrong, even if it were true (as it is not) that the inhabitants of 'The West', except for a minority of wealthy bosses, live in fear and squalor, while the worshippers of the State-God live in pease and abundance and in mutual esteem and trust. So I feel that the fiddle-faddle in reviews, and correspondence about them, as to whether my 'good people' were kind and merciful and gave quarter (in fact they do), or not is quite beside the point.
  
  My questions about the above passage are these:
  
  Regarding the hypothetical possibility that 'The West' in LoTR had hired orcs etc. and engaged in terrorism against men who allied with Sauron -- it seems clear from the above that such a war would be (in Tolkien's estimation) still a just war -- even a holy war, and that 'The West' would still be the 'right side.' If this is true, do the good ends justify in any way the cruel means? Or is Tolkien only saying (as I would) that the ends are independent of the means and that the means can (and should be) criticized independently of their ends?
  
  It also seems clear that in the the latter part of the section I have quoted Tolkien is drawing an analogy between the War of the Ring, and the conflict in 1956 (the apparent date of the letter) between 'The West' and the Soviet bloc. If Tolkien saw the Cold War in this way, is it reasonable to suppose that he saw the Second World War in a similar light?
  
  If so, how does this affect our understanding of the letters he wrote to his son during that war in which he compared the Allies (unfavorable) to the 'Allies" in LoTR? I seem to recall a passage either in one of those letters, or possibly in a Foreword to LoTR in which he suggests that if the War of the Ring were more like WWII, the Lords of the West would indeed employ orcs, and all sorts of evil weapons against a foe who had employed hobbits and good men along with orcs of their own?
  Is this not very much the same as the hypothetical situation in the above Letter?
  
  What about the First World War in which Tolkien himself served? I personally see much less of a 'right side' or 'wrong side' in this conflict than in the war that followed, but did Tolkien see a sort of State-God in the militaristic ambition of WWI Germany or Austria-Hungary? If so, how would this have affected his views on his own military service?

• Letter #183 and the Holy War of the Ring

  Michael > May 25th, 2004, 03:43 AM

  Quote:Originally posted by EagleoftheStar
  In Letter #183 (Tolkien's notes on W.H. Auden's review) Tolkien discusses the his view that in the War of the Ring (or in any conflict for that matter) those on the "right side" may do evil things, and those on the "wrong side" may do noble things. Nevertheless, there is a "wrong side" in LoTR and a "right side" that is defined by opposition to it.
  (This is my summary of the first part of the letter, I would welcome criticism of it, but the letter itself is too long to quote in its entirety).

  
  
  Every now and then I go on a tear and put the fear of Michael's Wrath into everyone. Bacchus occasionally suggests in a very polite way that I should calm down and so forth.
  
  However, I do appreciate your taking the time (and making the effort) to abide by the citation guideline.
  
  Your citations don't have to include full texts.
  
  You provided sufficient context, in my opinion, to justify your citation.
  
  For what it's worth.

• Letter #183 and the Holy War of the Ring

  Michael > May 25th, 2004, 03:49 AM

  Quote:Originally posted by EagleoftheStar
  Regarding the hypothetical possibility that 'The West' in LoTR had hired orcs etc. and engaged in terrorism against men who allied with Sauron -- it seems clear from the above that such a war would be (in Tolkien's estimation) still a just war -- even a holy war, and that 'The West' would still be the 'right side.' If this is true, do the good ends justify in any way the cruel means? Or is Tolkien only saying (as I would) that the ends are independent of the means and that the means can (and should be) criticized independently of their ends?

  
  He says a great deal in that letter. However, keep in mind that Gandalf, Elrond, and other leaders of the West accepted as as a fact or axiom that they -- though they might have the strength to do so -- could not use the One Ring to defeat Sauron. They felt they would have set themselves up as new Dark Lords.
  
  So, the West would not have gone as far as Sauron down whatever path one might attribute to evil. They would have refrained, and it is that restraint which Tolkien's independent judge (as described in the letter) would weigh against Sauron's willful domination of other spirits.
  
  

  Quote:It also seems clear that in the the latter part of the section I have quoted Tolkien is drawing an analogy between the War of the Ring, and the conflict in 1956 (the apparent date of the letter) between 'The West' and the Soviet bloc. If Tolkien saw the Cold War in this way, is it reasonable to suppose that he saw the Second World War in a similar light?

  
  He had nothing good to say about the Nazis. In the Second World War, Tolkien's homeland was actively attacked. The Cold War presented a serious threat of attack from the east, but Tolkien does not seem to have villified the Communists in his private correspondence the way he villified the Nazis.
  
  Which is not to say he was sympathetic to Communism (or Soviet interests) in any way.
  
  

  Quote:What about the First World War in which Tolkien himself served? I personally see much less of a 'right side' or 'wrong side' in this conflict than in the war that followed, but did Tolkien see a sort of State-God in the militaristic ambition of WWI Germany or Austria-Hungary? If so, how would this have affected his views on his own military service?

  
  
  Tolkien's letters reveal a long-standing resentment toward the wholesale carnage of the first World War. He regarded certain military types to be no better than Orcs, and he based that comparison on his own personal experiences.
  
  He was a man who firmly believed in fulfilling one's duty, but he saw the immense personal cost that war wreaks upon people up close.

• Letter #183 and the Holy War of the Ring

  Valandil > May 25th, 2004, 10:14 AM

  I have the impression it wasn't just the Soviet bloc, that he was speaking against, but likely also the notion of socialism within his own country. At about this time, if I recall, that topic comes up a number of times within his letters. Communism and Socialism both attempt to remove the worship of any spiritual god in order to replace it was a state 'god'... where everything comes from the state, goes to the state and the state is all, and is all-in-all.
  
  I suspect he would not have LIKED resorting to the use of evil to fight good. Personally, I have my own problems with that approach - as I am more of a 'means shape the ends' person than an 'ends justify the means' person. Throughout the course of our lives though, these attitudes and approaches can change quite significantly. (did anyone else get the impression that JRRT got... well, 'crankier' as he got older? :tongue: )
  
  Makes me wonder how he would have felt about current US involvement in the Middle-east... both as a young man and as an older man. Was that what you were getting at too, EagleoftheStar?
  
  Back to Middle-earth though, as he has written the stories and the characters, it's hard for me to imagine the protagonists using orcs and 'evil' tactics... it goes against their natures. I also would doubt the effectiveness of those tactics. I wonder if he saw these things in a different light from the time he wrote the stories to the time he wrote this statement.
  
  Another letter of his came to mind... the one in which he reacts with shock to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima. He CERTAINLY seemed uncomfortable with that... 11 years before the letter cited here. As human beings, all of us can be inconsistent in our attitudes - especially over the course of time.

• Letter #183 and the Holy War of the Ring

  Michael > May 25th, 2004, 02:24 PM

  Quote:Originally posted by Valandil
  Makes me wonder how he would have felt about current US involvement in the Middle-east... both as a young man and as an older man. Was that what you were getting at too, EagleoftheStar?

  
  This topic is OFF LIMITS at SF-FANDOM. That is a collective decision made by ALL the moderators, who don't want to find themselves bogged down in the quagmire of political discussions.
  
  Please, everyone, make no further references to what is happening on a political front anywhere in the world today.

• Letter #183 and the Holy War of the Ring

  Bacchus > May 25th, 2004, 02:36 PM

  I think there are layers upon layers here.
  
  First off, regarding socialism/communism, The Scouring of the Shire sets out fairly plainly (IMO) Tolkien's feelings on such an economic system as it is inevitably applied. The scornful comments about the ruffians' doing more gathering than sharing, and the poor quality of the leavings available at the Sherriff-houses are quite instructive.
  
  Second, I feel that Tolkien's point in the letter about ends and means was not Machiavellian, but rather an acknowledgement that a cause is not necessarily repudiated even by the use of 'evil' means. To my mind, this is more an acknowledgement of the fallen state of Man, and his imperfections even in the pursual of a righteous goal. Thus, Gandalf's harsh interrogation of Gollum, even if adjudged to be an 'evil' method, does not in and of itself repudiate the sum total of Gandalf's other actions. If, on the other hand, Gandalf were to take up the Ring, he would become in the end a more terrible tyrant than even Sauron. (see Letter 246). In this instance, Gandalf's goals themselves would change, and he would no longer be striving on the side of the Creator, but would rather be striving for his own aggrandisement (even if he did not himself realize it).
  
  Regarding the comparison of LOTR to WWII, I think the passage Eagle recalls is from the Foreword to LOTR, in which Tolkien denied that LOTR was an allegory of WWII. Those comments (narrowly made to demonstrate the differences between his story and the history of WWII) are not, IMO, inconsistent with the philosophy discussed in 183.

• Letter #183 and the Holy War of the Ring

  Valandil > May 25th, 2004, 06:07 PM

  Quote:Originally posted by Michael
  This topic is OFF LIMITS at SF-FANDOM. That is a collective decision made by ALL the moderators, who don't want to find themselves bogged down in the quagmire of political discussions.
  
  Please, everyone, make no further references to what is happening on a political front anywhere in the world today.

  
  
  Sorry about that. I did read that statement once - but I guess I was thinking mostly in terms of elections here in the US - rather than policy matters. But the point is well taken. I'll be sure to stay off such matters in the future... though it honestly didn't cross my mind as I composed the post.
  
  Again - sorry.

• Letter #183 and the Holy War of the Ring

  Bacchus > May 25th, 2004, 06:34 PM

  Quote:Originally posted by Valandil
  Sorry about that. I did read that statement once - but I guess I was thinking mostly in terms of elections here in the US - rather than policy matters. But the point is well taken. I'll be sure to stay off such matters in the future... though it honestly didn't cross my mind as I composed the post.
  
  Again - sorry.

  No worries, Valandil. The ban on political discussion is intended to keep us all on-topic. No further action has been taken beyond the reminder above that we are a forum dedicated to science fiction-not current events.
  
  No need to reply to this post; I consider the matter closed.
  
  Bacchus

• Letter #183 and the Holy War of the Ring

  Valandil > May 25th, 2004, 07:14 PM

  I guess one of the points I was trying to make though is that we all, as human beings, sometimes take on contradictory points of view at different times in our lives, or at different moments. If for instance, all the letters I ever wrote - or goodness, all the emails I've written in just the past 5-8 years - were all compiled together, it would be pretty easy to find inconsistencies in my thoughts. I might change my mind at times... or I might have had something happen to me on a particular day - and what I was feeling about it would likely spill over into my writings.
  
  As much as I respect Professor Tolkien, I expect he was subject to all the same weaknesses the rest of us humans are - including the ability to write something (or at one time to hold a view) that you might at other times disagree with. I really wonder if that's the case with what he says in this letter.
  
  Part of what I'm thinking goes back to the 'God' issue. If Tolkien did indeed model Eru on the Christian concept of God... well, God is more interested in ruling our hearts than ruling our lands. When we who seek to follow Him and LET Him rule in our hearts - would try to use tactics, methods or devices of our Enemy... He loses us - or loses the 'us' He wants us to be.
  
  God is more interested in the soldier than in the outcome of the earthly war... I think Tolkien knew this in his 'book writing days'.
  
  On the other hand Bacchus, you raise some good points in that prior post. Perhaps even resorting to a war at all is all that is left to 'fallen man' in JRRT's view. Hmmm... hard to say. I do wonder if he would have consistently held that view through his life though. It's hard to back up my impressions otherwise - except for recalling the one letter about Hiroshima... which, as I stated before, does seem counter to this line of thinking from #183 (my 'Letters...' book is at home and I'm in the office now - anyone want to post that portion - or shall I take it upon myself at a later time?).
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