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Kirk's hate for Klingons

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• Kirk's hate for Klingons

• Kirk's hate for Klingons

  badlands > December 15th, 2009, 10:28 PM

  I understand why if it had anything to do with his son's death or was it a relative who killed by them? His hatred was even before that. There should have more depth to his hate.

• Kirk's hate for Klingons

  Michael > December 16th, 2009, 04:27 AM

  Kirk's history with Klingons is anything but kind and gentle. He had fought with them on several occasions and also engaged in diplomatic and espionage campaigns against the Klingons. His feelings toward them would therefore have been rooted in a lifetime of opposing Klingons.

• Kirk's hate for Klingons

  august > December 16th, 2009, 09:51 AM

  In particular, the incident with the Organians comes to mind. The Klingon commander ordered the execution of a bunch of innocent citizens in retaliation for Kirk's guerilla warfare against them. Of course, the Organians simply made the Klingons think they had succeeded in executing them... but that doesn't make the Klingons any nicer.
  
  20+ years later, when the Undiscovered Country script needed a plot device to explain Kirk's hatred for them, the death of his son (again, an execution of an innocent) was a far more recent event that movie-goers might be able to remember more easily. Plus, as we saw in generations, as Kirk got older, he began to regret lost opportunities, like having a wife and children.

• Kirk's hate for Klingons

  LadyG7284 > December 16th, 2009, 05:50 PM

  I agree with the fact that Kirk's hate of Klingons went far back in time, to TOS. But it wasnt just him that hated them, it was the entire Federation. Since that huge hatred was never fully explained, just assumed, it's hard for us to just assume why were they hated so much, other than the obvious- they were mean, nasty, smelly and care(d) nothing for anyone other than thier own kind, especially innocent people.
  
  The fact that they killed his son- that made Kirk's personal hatred for them go beyond words. I can understand fully how he must have felt but in my own way, I am wondering why? This is a son he never even knew he had up until the previous film, a son who we argued must have been in his early 20's at least, that Kirk never knew about! They certainly were not able to make up for 20 years of lost time between one film to the next and then the boy gets killed. Okay so, wheather or not Kirk got to know his son or not, shouldnt be the issue as to why he was so angry and upset over his innocent death, but all those years later he still anguished over it, over someone he didnt even really know and didnt even know existed but for a brief time.
  
  I am not trying to sound selfless here or uncaring about it all, I am just simply trying to get why he took the boy's death so hard when he didnt even know he existed all his life and barely knew him. I think it was more about the fact that the Klingons killed him in cold blood-that was the underlying story and how he had to mention it later on, in "The Undiscovered Country" and then the words were later used against him.
  But I suppose if they hadnt been, there wouldnt have been a story to the film.

• Kirk's hate for Klingons

  EDSEL_PK > December 16th, 2009, 10:23 PM

  The relationship between the Klingons and Federation in ST: VI was intended to mirror that of the US and USSR during the Cold War. Both sides had been 'conditioned' to hate their adversary.
  
  Aside from that, the early Federation had a lot of solid reasons to fear and/or despise many alien races.
  Klingons built a sizeable empire with sword, fire, and disruptors. After all, Roddenberry patterned them after the Mongols.
  
  But since Trek was about resolving differences, the really heavy, dark aspects of war, slavery, genocide, etc...were watered down to fit the PC necessities of PG cinema and primetime TV.

• Kirk's hate for Klingons

  Boomstick > December 17th, 2009, 12:25 AM

  badlands Wrote:I understand why if it had anything to do with his son's death or was it a relative who killed by them? His hatred was even before that. There should have more depth to his hate.

  
  I think they played it pretty well. His dislike of them was shown out in the open, but he never let it get in the way of his duty to his crew. For all his fights with them, he'd work alongside of them when the situation called for it.

• Kirk's hate for Klingons

  LadyG7284 > December 17th, 2009, 07:22 PM

  Boomstick Wrote:I think they played it pretty well. His dislike of them was shown out in the open, but he never let it get in the way of his duty to his crew. For all his fights with them, he'd work alongside of them when the situation called for it.

  
  Wouldnt that call him some type of 'great man'? Well maybe...but you are right, he WOULD work along side of them if he had to or needed to, depending upon the situation and that made him a great man. Being able to swallow his pride and do his duty.
  Just because you dislike or hate someone SO much, doesnt mean that you cant find some sort of respect for them or at least respect what they stand for. Doesnt mean you have to dislike them any less, it just means you can be the 'bigger' person and do what's right for everyone involved, not what's best just for YOU, but what's right.
  
  It's to bad that Kirk never knew that the Klingons, a handful of them anyways, turned into really good people, like Worf...He never got to find out that a Klingon was part of TNG crew. Would it have changed how he felt about them? Maybe...maybe not. Time CAN heal wounds but in certain circumstances, there will never be enough time to heal all wounds. He died before he could find any of this out, he spent what was actually 80 years in the Nexus...alot can and did happen in that time.
  
  Just remember what he told Picard:'dont let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship cause while there, you CAN make a difference..." Kirk made a difference SO many times-even if it meant working with the Klingons to do it.

• Kirk's hate for Klingons

  Boomstick > December 18th, 2009, 02:25 AM

  LadyG7284 Wrote:It's to bad that Kirk never knew that the Klingons, a handful of them anyways, turned into really good people, like Worf...He never got to find out that a Klingon was part of TNG crew. Would it have changed how he felt about them?

  I think Kirk acknowledges that by the end of The Undiscovered Country, more or less. That's kind of the culmination of the film, where Kirk accepts that times change, and a certain amount of trust and faith is required to move forward.
  
  In the TNG episode "Relics," there's that great moment when Scotty first sees Worf. He gives him a look as though to say "what in the heck are you doing here?!" :laugh:

• Kirk's hate for Klingons

  RobRoy > December 18th, 2009, 11:50 AM

• Kirk's hate for Klingons

  august > December 18th, 2009, 04:43 PM

  It would have been wonderful for him to have an Austin Powers moment, and say "Ah, so the Klingon Empire finally absorbed the corrupt humans, eh? About time - I've been waiting to share a bowl of gahkh with my Klingon brothers! Death to the Federation dogs!" :laugh:

• Kirk's hate for Klingons

  Boomstick > January 2nd, 2010, 04:35 AM

  I just noticed in "Day of the Dove" that it's McCoy that really gets carried away with the Klingon-hatred, albeit under the influence of the 'alien.' Kirk, on the other hand, keeps himself under control.

• Kirk's hate for Klingons

  august > January 2nd, 2010, 12:36 PM

  Interesting trivia note - the main Klingon, Kang, was played by Michael Ansara, who was married at the time to Jeannie actress Barbara Eden! According to the IMDB, he is one of only six actors to play the same character (i.e. Kang) on three different Trek series - TOS, DS9 (the one where the old generals get together for one last hurrah) and Voyager (Tuvok's flashback ep.) He has also been the voice of Mr. Freeze on a number of the animated Batman series. Plus he's guested on just about every show ever, from Babylon 5 to Buck Rogers to Kojak, McCloud, McMillan and Wife, The Mod Squad etc. etc.

• Kirk's hate for Klingons

  Boomstick > January 2nd, 2010, 01:32 PM

  august Wrote:Interesting trivia note - the main Klingon, Kang, was played by Michael Ansara, who was married at the time to Jeannie actress Barbara Eden! According to the IMDB, he is one of only six actors to play the same character (i.e. Kang) on three different Trek series - TOS, DS9 (the one where the old generals get together for one last hurrah) and Voyager (Tuvok's flashback ep.) He has also been the voice of Mr. Freeze on a number of the animated Batman series. Plus he's guested on just about every show ever, from Babylon 5 to Buck Rogers to Kojak, McCloud, McMillan and Wife, The Mod Squad etc. etc.

  
  Ah-ha! Now that you say it, the Fr. Freeze voice from Batman:TAS fits perfectly! I always enjoyed that character on the animated series, because of his lifeless, droning voice. Very cool. (Um, sorry, I didn't write that intentionally...y'know, Mr. Freeze, "very cool".....my subconscious can't help itself, apparently...) :bg:
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