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Exhorting Tar-Atanamir

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  • Exhorting Tar-Atanamir
• Exhorting Tar-Atanamir

• Exhorting Tar-Atanamir

  Alvin Eriol > March 31st, 2005, 03:26 PM

  In Akallabeth, we are told that envy of Elvish "immortality" and attitudes of apostasy against the Ban of the Valar and the will of Eru in general, reached such a level during the reign of Tar-Atanamir "the Great" (who reigned SA 2029 to 2221) that apparently the Valar felt compelled to directly state their case to the rebellious Numenoreans.
  
  Supposedly, "messengers" came before the King and presented the arguments recorded in Akallabeth, which of course he disregarded.
  
  This episode, in which the "messengers'" arguments were supposedly quoted directly, always interested me in part because of what we have not been told as well as what we were. All sorts of interesting questions occur to me.
  
  I've always wondered who were the 'messengers' that met with Tar-Atanamir and attempted to reconcile with him? They were from Valinor, surely, but were they Elf-lords, Maiar, some combo of the above? Did the delegation include anyone of whom we had heard before?
  
  Could emissaries from Lindon have come and participated as well, perhaps even Elrond as Gil-Galad's herald?
  
  Might this have been the occasion for Glorfindel to meet Elrond, and enter his service?
  
  I've sometimes thought that this might even have been an early "away" mission for Olorin; maybe the words spoken to Atanamir were his!
  :coffee: :dude:

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  Gildor Inglorion > March 31st, 2005, 04:32 PM

  While I have nothing specific to say on this, Alvin Eriol gives several intriguing possibilities. Lots of room for speculations and fan fics, but, as JRRT said no more than the annal quoted, we never will know for sure what happened on this occasion.
  This is a good example of the near inexhaustible richness of JRRT's legendarium.

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  Michael > March 31st, 2005, 05:35 PM

  Don't ask me where, but I am sure I have read something by Tolkien which said those messengers were Elves. It's been a long time and I'm not sure of where to look for the passage.

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  Kirinki54 > April 1st, 2005, 05:44 PM

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  Alvin Eriol > April 4th, 2005, 01:44 AM

  Well, I'm sure Michael found the statement somewhere. I've just checked "The History of Akallabeth", "The Line of Elros", the two versions of the early "Downfall of Numenor" in The Lost Road and Other Writings, and the Letters, to no avail, so far.
  
  In regard to the applicability of "weariness" and "immortality" to the Ainur, take heed of the statement near the end of chapter 1 in the published Quenta Silmarillion in Sil77:
  

  Quote:But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Iluvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers will envy.

  Therefore, IMCO, even the Valar, much less the Maiar, could truthfully have made the statement Kirinki54 cites.
  
  As to the possibility Olorin was a member of the delegation, if he came, he would almost certainly have come in the form of an Elf, and would not have revealed his true identity. It seemed to be his way to work incognito by means of "promptings of wisdom", not by "pulling rank" with his authority as a Maia. As the Valaquenta says:
  

  Quote:But of Olorin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom he put in their hearts.

  
  Finally, I could make a "documentary" argument and ask what actually was Elendil's source for this part of Akallabeth? Did his ancestor, the Lord of Andunie of that time, actually witness or participate in these sessions, and even if so, would he necessarily have been able to discern a Maia in Elven form who did not wish to be identified as such? If the tale came basically from King's Men or the chronicles theyrecorded, they almost certainly would have thought all apparent Elves were Elves.

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  Alcuin > April 4th, 2005, 04:28 AM

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  Kirinki54 > April 4th, 2005, 05:15 PM

  Alvin Eriol Wrote:Therefore, IMCO, even the Valar, much less the Maiar, could truthfully have made the statement Kirinki54 cites.

  
  I think you are right.
  
  

  Alvin Eriol Wrote:As to the possibility Olorin was a member of the delegation, if he came, he would almost certainly have come in the form of an Elf, and would not have revealed his true identity. It seemed to be his way to work incognito by means of "promptings of wisdom", not by "pulling rank" with his authority as a Maia.

  
  That is also true. I do not rule out a Maia posing as an Elf (the "modified Maia" hypothesis). But I was trying to argument that, based on what Tolkien wrote of Gandalf - the various versions in UT for example - it seems to me unlikely that Olorin was among that Messenger delegation. Could have been of course.

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  Michael > April 5th, 2005, 02:15 AM

  My abilities to engage in research right now are extremely limited, which is the chief reason for why I have not been participating very much in these discussions.
  
  My gut feeling is that the remark I had in mind would be found in a letter, but I don't know if the letter would have been included in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. A few scraps and pieces of letters not included in that book have found their ways into other texts.

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  Alcuin > April 5th, 2005, 04:15 AM

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  Coconut Ent > April 5th, 2005, 05:53 AM

  You never catch a Dwarf grumbling about their lifespan.
  
  Why are Men such whiners?

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  Alcuin > April 5th, 2005, 06:00 AM

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  Alcuin > April 5th, 2005, 06:08 AM

  Coconut Ent Wrote:Why are Men such whiners?

  The younger kids are always whinier in my house. (No offense intended to those of you youngest or younger in your family birth-order! Don't blast back...) I think it is the best way they have available as small children to get what they want from the older ones. It seems to me that, in some regard, Men are acting in that respect toward Elves.

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  Kirinki54 > April 5th, 2005, 06:16 PM

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  Alcuin > April 5th, 2005, 07:26 PM

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  Kirinki54 > April 8th, 2005, 05:01 PM
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