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No half dwarves in the Tolkien books
- No half dwarves in the Tolkien books
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No half dwarves in the Tolkien books
badlands > April 25th, 2024, 09:45 PM
Why is that? There are half orcs, half elves, and even half trolls, but no half dwarves. -
RE: No half dwarves in the Tolkien books
august > April 26th, 2024, 03:42 PM
People often think that there are no half-dwarves. because they so closely resemble the full-blooded.
(It's the beards.
)
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RE: No half dwarves in the Tolkien books
RobRoy > April 26th, 2024, 09:09 PM
(April 26th, 2024, 03:42 PM)august Wrote: People often think that there are no half-dwarves. because they so closely resemble the full-blooded.
(It's the beards. )
I understood that reference!
While intermarriage and their progeny is a thing in Tolkien, it's a very, very, very rare thing. So rare, in fact, as to almost be not a thing. We might consider them "not rare" because some of the major lore of Tolkien's legendarium focusses on these relationships and their children—often with tragic consequences. But that's because those are the major historical events that helped shape the course of Middle Earth. Further, we probably think its a non-rare event because D&D and other RPGs took no small amount of inspiration from Tolkien, but flipped the concept in the other direction, with all kinds of cross-species variations such that they were almost, though not quite, mundane. Finally, Dwarves, as a race, were fairly insular and secretive to begin with. They had their own language which was rarely, if ever, spoken outside the community, and kept secret from other races. They also had "true names" that were known only to themselves and close family members, highly guarded, and almost never shared with outsiders. This kind of a society and mindset would be even more closed off to the concept of intermarriage than even the Elves, so it's almost completely unlikely that there were ever any half-dwarves. -
RE: No half dwarves in the Tolkien books
Michael > April 28th, 2024, 12:59 AM
Tolkien left open the possibility of half-dwarves, and he even teased the reader with a reference to "men like half-dwarves" (probably just a tribe of short, beaded men, though). -
RE: No half dwarves in the Tolkien books
Mordomin > April 28th, 2024, 03:54 PM
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RE: No half dwarves in the Tolkien books
RobRoy > April 29th, 2024, 02:41 PM
(April 28th, 2024, 12:59 AM)Michael Wrote: Tolkien left open the possibility of half-dwarves, and he even teased the reader with a reference to "men like half-dwarves" (probably just a tribe of short, beaded men, though).
Sure. I wasn't saying it couldn't happen. I just wasn't aware of it ever happening, and ran through the most likely reasons why.
(April 28th, 2024, 03:54 PM)Mordomin Wrote: A half-dwarf/half-what? What are we suggesting could interbreed with Dwarves?
So . . . Men, Elves, Hobbits, and Orcs/Goblins.
All of these use the same basic chassis and engine design. We know that Men/Elves and Men/Orcs was a thing, so I don't see a physical reason why these combinations wouldn't work.
Dark Lords are right out, though. They have their own dating app. -
RE: No half dwarves in the Tolkien books
Mordomin > April 30th, 2024, 12:56 AM
(April 29th, 2024, 02:41 PM)RobRoy Wrote: Sure. I wasn't saying it couldn't happen. I just wasn't aware of it ever happening, and ran through the most likely reasons why.
(April 28th, 2024, 03:54 PM)Mordomin Wrote: A half-dwarf/half-what? What are we suggesting could interbreed with Dwarves?
(April 29th, 2024, 02:41 PM)RobRoy Wrote: So . . . Men, Elves, Hobbits, and Orcs/Goblins.
I do. The races you list are all part of, or corruptions of, the Two Kindreds; which the Dwarves expressly are not. There is no reason to assume that Aule used the same basic chassis and engine design as Eru. Personally, I see Aule as a 'metric-system' guy, while Eru used 'Imperial measures'.
All of these use the same basic chassis and engine design. We know that Men/Elves and Men/Orcs was a thing, so I don't see a physical reason why these combinations wouldn't work.
(April 29th, 2024, 02:41 PM)RobRoy Wrote: Dark Lords are right out, though. They have their own dating app.
"Binder"? I thought that was for....er, nevermind. :::deleting app::: -
RE: No half dwarves in the Tolkien books
Michael > April 30th, 2024, 01:47 AM
(April 28th, 2024, 03:54 PM)Mordomin Wrote:
(April 28th, 2024, 12:59 AM)Michael Wrote: Tolkien left open the possibility of half-dwarves, and he even teased the reader with a reference to "men like half-dwarves" (probably just a tribe of short, beaded men, though).
A half-dwarf/half-what? What are we suggesting could interbreed with Dwarves?
LOL! I'm not sure I want to go there. -
RE: No half dwarves in the Tolkien books
RobRoy > April 30th, 2024, 01:34 PM
(April 30th, 2024, 12:56 AM)Mordomin Wrote: I do. The races you list are all part of, or corruptions of, the Two Kindreds; which the Dwarves expressly are not. There is no reason to assume that Aule used the same basic chassis and engine design as Eru. Personally, I see Aule as a 'metric-system' guy, while Eru used 'Imperial measures'.
There's also no reason to assume Aule didn't.
Besides which, SAE and metric have equivalents. A 9/16ths is close enough to an 14mm to get the job done, and done right! Ask any McGuyver. -
RE: No half dwarves in the Tolkien books
Alvin Eriol > April 30th, 2024, 06:48 PM
(April 28th, 2024, 03:54 PM)Mordomin Wrote: A half-dwarf/half-what? What are we suggesting could interbreed with Dwarves?
What are we suggesting would want to? Even a drunk Orc might need some persuading!
Four words: the women have beards!
Even Gimli the Dwarf seemed to have a thing for beardless nissi, as Coco Ent once pointed out!
Speaking of Ents and Coconut Ent, if the Onodrim reproduce by pollination, would other races merely respond by sneezing?
This ain't Star Trek!
Of course, lots of fans, especially newcomers to Tolkien, often assume Hobbits are related to Dwarves in some way, e.g. a crossing of Dwarves and Men, but JRRT was clear about the species of Hobbits!
But at the end of the day, Robroy might be on the right track and there's no Secondary World biological reason it can't happen, absent a hitherto unknown writing by JRRT to the contrary surfacing!
(April 30th, 2024, 01:34 PM)RobRoy Wrote:
(April 30th, 2024, 12:56 AM)Mordomin Wrote: ... There is no reason to assume that Aule used the same basic chassis and engine design as Eru. Personally, I see Aule as a 'metric-system' guy, while Eru used 'Imperial measures'.
There's also no reason to assume Aule didn't.
Besides which, SAE and metric have equivalents. A 9/16ths is close enough to an 14mm to get the job done, and done right! Ask any McGuyver.
I've always been quite fond of adjustable wrenches anyway, including a peculiar resident of my toolbox that adjusts to grip four faces of any small hex nut and has a ratchet tighten/loosen switch, operating generally like an adjustable socket wrench! I've also got complete sets of smaller metric sockets, but each one fits 3/8", 1/2", or 1/4" drives!
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RE: No half dwarves in the Tolkien books
RobRoy > May 1st, 2024, 12:22 PM
(April 30th, 2024, 06:48 PM)Alvin Eriol Wrote: What are we suggesting would want to? Even a drunk Orc might need some persuading!
Four words: the women have beards!
Even Gimli the Dwarf seemed to have a thing for beardless nissi, as Coco Ent once pointed out!
Speaking of Ents and Coconut Ent, if the Onodrim reproduce by pollination, would other races merely respond by sneezing?
HAHAHAHA!
Hey man, don't kink-shame!
Quote: I've always been quite fond of adjustable wrenches anyway, including a peculiar resident of my toolbox that adjusts to grip four faces of any small hex nut and has a ratchet tighten/loosen switch, operating generally like an adjustable socket wrench! I've also got complete sets of smaller metric sockets, but each one fits 3/8", 1/2", or 1/4" drives!
Some tools can accomplish multiple jobs!
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RE: No half dwarves in the Tolkien books
Michael > Yesterday, 05:53 PM
Peter Jackson implied there might be some half-Dwarf/half-Elf unions. I don't see why it couldn't happen, unless Tolkien meant they were biologically incompatible.