• Options
• Login
• Register
• Desktop Style
• Accelerated Mobile Pages Theme

The Borderlands

• Index

  • Science Fiction and Fantasy Community Forums
  • General Discussions
  • History
  • The Borderlands
• The Borderlands

• The Borderlands

  Michael > March 30th, 2022, 01:53 AM

  At the start of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, there seemed to be differences of opinion among news media organizations whether the country should be called "the Ukraine" or simply "Ukraine".
  
  The country's name is derived from Slavic ukraina, meaning "borderlands". So while I can understand why some people might think "the Ukraine" is appropriate, I got the impression from an interview with a Ukrainian (diplomat? not sure) that they consider that an insult. To them, the country is simply "Ukraine" and they are Ukrainians.
  
  I think it's interesting that other regions have been called "borderlands" or similar throughout history.
  
  In ancient Great Britain there was a kingdom called Mercia, and that name was derived from the tribal name Mierce, which meant "border-folk" or "border-people". More technically, it's usually translated as "Men of the Marches". The Anglian root was mearc. Tolkien fans may know it better as mark (such as "the Riddermark", or Rohan's native name for itself).
  
  There is a modern nation, Denmark, whose name means "the Dane March". Ancient Germany and Scandinavia, whose peoples once spoke very closely related languages, used mark to denote borderlands all over the place. A mark or march was a strip of land that was defended against foreign tribes.
  
  France and England assigned nobles to defend their marches and their titles gave rise to marquis and marquess.
  
  I don't know of any other modern "march"-style country or region names. There is a city in southeastern Spain called Murcia, but though its etymology is in some doubt it's not related to Spanish marca (which is the Spanish version of German mark). Murcia is assumed to be derived from a Latin word through Arabic Mursiyah. The city was in fact established by the emir of Cordoba, so I'm not sure of why linguists/historians assume there was a Latin root. I suppose the evidence is there somewhere.
  
  There are some other regional names that have similar stylings, I suppose you could say. Morocco is derived from an Arabic phrase meaning "the Kingdom of the West". And Anatolia (now part of modern Turkey) means "the East". Baja means "lower" so Baja California is "lower California".
  
  Vietnam means, literally, "south Viet" - so "South Vietnam" must have seemed a bit strange. Viet is from a phrase, Bach Viet, meaning "the rice growing people". So the early Vietnamese people lived to the south of the northern rice growing people (who lived in what is now southwestern China). Well, that's probably an oversimplification of the etymology.
  
  I'm sure there must be other regional names like these, but I don't know them.

• RE: The Borderlands

  Michael > April 6th, 2022, 02:52 AM

  I've always wondered what people in older countries, whose names can be translated into English words (like "borderlands"), think of those countries (as something other than "home").
  
  But then, I wonder about how people perceive their names when they are given in their own languages. My name, Michael, is Hebrew (originally Micha'el, "who is like God?"). I can't imagine being called "Who Is Like God" in English all day long.
  
  Of course, in my favorite fantasy book J.R.R. Tolkien bestowed place-names in many languages, including English: The Hill, The Water, Bywater, Dale, and so on. So he was very cognizant of how community, regional, or national/tribal names had mundane meanings in their own languages.
  
  There is a text in one of the History of Middle=earth books where Christopher Tolkien provides a list of Elvish tribal names his father had devised for isolated groups of Teleri who never even reached Beleriand. The only name I recall off the top of my head is Penni. But all of those names were dialectal variations on Quendi, which means "the speakers".
  
  In ancient European tradition, it was said that when Celtic tribes became too populous, they would split up. Some of their members would wander off and find a new home, but they retained their ancient tribal name. So maps of pre-Roman Europe often show the same tribal names in 2 or 3 places. That wasn't an accident. Of course, the tribal names didn't always change due to dialectal variations, but sometimes they did.
• Next Oldest Next Newest