Jaak > March 3rd, 2024, 04:39 PM
Alvin Eriol > March 3rd, 2024, 09:35 PM
Jaak > March 5th, 2024, 07:40 AM
(March 3rd, 2024, 09:35 PM)Alvin Eriol Wrote: I think it meant all those who had enough volition and choice took to their heels. I do not think the Ringwraiths would have been included in that category."perceived that the power ... [of Númenór] ...surpassed all rumour of them"
"Akallabêth" in Sil77 states that Sauron "perceived that the power ... [of Númenór] ...surpassed all rumour of them, so that he could not trust even the greatest of his servants to withstand them..."
"Of the Rings of Power" in Sil77 says, "So great was the power and splendour of the Númenóreans...that the servants of Sauron would not withstand them..."
The 1st quote suggests Sauron decided his servants or vassals would not be capable of achieving a military victory.
The second suggests that these "servants" actually refused, out of fear. I don't think this includes the Ringwraiths, who were by then totally under his control.
My copies of Peoples of Middle-Earth and the Letters seem to be mislaid. Was that quote perhaps from a Letter? I seem to vaguely recall it.
It could be that Sauron had enough lead time to make plans and preparations, as "Akallabêth" described the runup and the landing and movements of Ar-Pharazôn as taking time, and I imagine Sauron had spies on Númenór who could keep him posted on developments, perhaps even the King's plans before they were made public.
(March 3rd, 2024, 09:35 PM)Alvin Eriol Wrote: I'm thinking Sauron could have sent the Ringwraiths on various other assignments, to "mind the store" of his empire while he was having his little island vacay! Some presumably kept an eye on his greatest vassals. Since we're never told Ar-Pharazôn's forces ever entered nor even approached Mordor, at least one, presumably their leader, would take charge of Mordor and the Dark Tower while those facilities were "mothballed". There might even have been some Orcs and the first Black Númenóreans in-country while Sauron was gone over the Sea. This could help explain why Sauron was able to wage war relatively quickly after the Downfall. He came to meet the Númenóreans at Umbar alone, not with a host, so any desertion had probably happened earlier, not while Sauron was "surrendering"!Sauron´s original plan was NOT an "island holiday". Sauron´s original plan when showing up to surrender was getting confirmed by Ar-Pharazon as Ar-Pharazon´s vassal on Middle-Earth, remaining on Middle-Earth and being sent back to rule Mordor in a few week. Ar-Pharazon´s insistence on carrying Sauron to Numenor as a prisoner was a surprise for Sauron. Which might well have upset his arrangements for his absence from Mordor.
Michael > March 6th, 2024, 11:55 AM
Mordomin > March 10th, 2024, 12:50 AM
(March 6th, 2024, 11:55 AM)Michael Wrote: I don't think the Nazgul would have surrendered to Ar-Pharazon. Why wouldn't he take them to Numenor as well if they had?As I understand it, as long as Sauron wore the One Ring, the Nazgûl could not surrender to anyone other than Sauron. I suppose that the Dark Lord could have ordered them to bow and curtsy before the King of Numenor. But their loyalty could not be shifted.
This is probably a weak point in Tolkien's narrative.
RobRoy > March 10th, 2024, 07:43 PM
(March 10th, 2024, 12:50 AM)Mordomin Wrote: As I understand it, as long as Sauron wore the One Ring, the Nazgûl could not surrender to anyone other than Sauron.
Mordomin > March 10th, 2024, 10:34 PM
(March 10th, 2024, 07:43 PM)RobRoy Wrote:That is my recollection as well. Frodo did not have within him the strength to master the Ring.(March 10th, 2024, 12:50 AM)Mordomin Wrote: As I understand it, as long as Sauron wore the One Ring, the Nazgûl could not surrender to anyone other than Sauron.
Did he even need to wear the One Ring? I'm asking because I'm not 100% clear, but I was thinking about Tolkien's letter regarding what the Nazgul might have done had Frodo gotten out of Orodruin after claiming the Ring. I'd have to look it up to be certain, but my memory is that they would have placated him, called him lord and feigned obedience, but that would have only to buy time until they could pull down the entrance to the mountain, and then bring Frodo to Sauron.
Michael > March 10th, 2024, 11:41 PM
(March 10th, 2024, 07:43 PM)RobRoy Wrote:(March 10th, 2024, 12:50 AM)Mordomin Wrote: As I understand it, as long as Sauron wore the One Ring, the Nazgûl could not surrender to anyone other than Sauron.
Did he even need to wear the One Ring? I'm asking because I'm not 100% clear, but I was thinking about Tolkien's letter regarding what the Nazgul might have done had Frodo gotten out of Orodruin after claiming the Ring. I'd have to look it up to be certain, but my memory is that they would have placated him, called him lord and feigned obedience, but that would have only to buy time until they could pull down the entrance to the mountain, and then bring Frodo to Sauron.
RobRoy > March 11th, 2024, 02:17 PM
(March 10th, 2024, 11:41 PM)Michael Wrote: Sauron wore the One Ring all the time during the Second Age. He took it to Numenor with him. Tolkien even wrote in a letter he didn't think it was problematic that Sauron's spirit would be able to carry the One Ring out of the ruin of Numenor.
Mordomin > March 13th, 2024, 12:17 AM
(March 11th, 2024, 02:17 PM)RobRoy Wrote: [B]ut in relation to controlling the Nazgul or their ability to surrender to someone else, did Sauron need to be wearing the One Ring?I think not. In addition to the One Ring, Sauron also held the Nine Rings of Men, and it was to their power rather than the One to which the Ringwraiths were enslaved.
RobRoy > March 13th, 2024, 12:30 PM
(March 13th, 2024, 12:17 AM)Mordomin Wrote: I think not. In addition to the One Ring, Sauron also held the Nine Rings of Men, and it was to their power rather than the One to which the Ringwraiths were enslaved.
Mordomin > March 14th, 2024, 01:04 PM
(March 13th, 2024, 12:30 PM)RobRoy Wrote: I think this has been brought up before, but I can't remember the conclusion: Did Sauron actually need the Rings to control the Nazgul? The Elves removed their three Rings and kept them hidden when Sauron put on the One, because the Master Ring would control all the others. I supposed if he didn't have the One, he did need the Nine to control the wraiths.I think that you're right (that it has been brought up before, LOL), and I don't remember the conclusion either. My 2 cents at this point is that, once they had been enslaved by their Rings of Power, they could not be un-enslaved so to speak, and that is why Sauron reclaimed the Nine Rings from them. They were no longer necessary for him to maintain his control over them.
Jaak > March 17th, 2024, 10:01 AM
(March 10th, 2024, 11:41 PM)Michael Wrote: Sauron wore the One Ring all the time during the Second Age. He took it to Numenor with him. Tolkien even wrote in a letter he didn't think it was problematic that Sauron's spirit would be able to carry the One Ring out of the ruin of Numenor.
turnipjuice > March 17th, 2024, 02:53 PM
(March 17th, 2024, 10:01 AM)Jaak Wrote:(March 10th, 2024, 11:41 PM)Michael Wrote: Sauron wore the One Ring all the time during the Second Age. He took it to Numenor with him. Tolkien even wrote in a letter he didn't think it was problematic that Sauron's spirit would be able to carry the One Ring out of the ruin of Numenor.
That´s an answer that has always been problematic for me. The retort would be - "If Sauron´s ghost could retrieve the physical Ring at Numenor, why not at Mount Doom?" - that is, why didn´t ghost Sauron grab the Ring immediately or stalk Isildur and steal the Ring soon?
Jaak > March 18th, 2024, 07:11 AM
(March 17th, 2024, 02:53 PM)turnipjuice Wrote:(March 17th, 2024, 10:01 AM)Jaak Wrote:(March 10th, 2024, 11:41 PM)Michael Wrote: Sauron wore the One Ring all the time during the Second Age. He took it to Numenor with him. Tolkien even wrote in a letter he didn't think it was problematic that Sauron's spirit would be able to carry the One Ring out of the ruin of Numenor.
That´s an answer that has always been problematic for me. The retort would be - "If Sauron´s ghost could retrieve the physical Ring at Numenor, why not at Mount Doom?" - that is, why didn´t ghost Sauron grab the Ring immediately or stalk Isildur and steal the Ring soon?
Indeed. I would guess that Sauron was so shocked at the loss of the One Ring and a finger that he was too diminished to do much of anything after Isildur violently took it from him. Remember too that before his encounter with Isildur Sauron had a couple of epic encounters with Gil-galad and Elendil.
Alvin Eriol > March 18th, 2024, 04:15 PM
Jaak > March 19th, 2024, 05:49 AM
(March 18th, 2024, 04:15 PM)Alvin Eriol Wrote: but wolf-Sauron was not slain but released after yielding control of the tower to Lúthien, whereupon he changed shape and flew off, so that principle is not even applicable. Recall that Lúthien had mocked him after Huan whupped him, saying his ghost would flee shamefully to Morgoth, a prospect he didn't like one bit!
The first test of the special ability came with the Downfall, the second with his defeat and demise at Mt. Doom at the hands of Elendil and Gil-Galad. In Númenór, his physical body presumably retained possession of the Ring, and it was his "fair" form he made for himself unimpeded. Despite getting slammed by a great wave and tremendous pressure in the ocean depths
RobRoy > March 19th, 2024, 11:16 AM
(March 19th, 2024, 05:49 AM)Jaak Wrote: Why did he get slammed by the great wave?
He had demonstrated his ability to change shape from fair form to animals, eventually bat - and then back to fair form.
Tar-Miriel was stuck to her human form but ran from the wave towards Meneltarma. (The wave was faster). Sauron was NOT stuck in his fair form, he might just have changed shape from his fair form (which had nowhere to run from approaching wave) to a bat form (which could just fly above the wave), and not get slammed by the approaching wave at all.
Alvin Eriol > March 19th, 2024, 11:55 AM
Michael > March 21st, 2024, 12:43 AM