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'Illegal' Downloading
- 'Illegal' Downloading
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'Illegal' Downloading
Johnny D > May 22nd, 2005, 06:05 AM
Illegal downloading, who does it?-who doesnt?-who has a problem with it?
Me- I do occasionaly download films and dont see a major morale problem with it.
but I disaprove of downloading (ie. bootleg copies) for a personal profit
what do you think? -
'Illegal' Downloading
Coconut Ent > May 22nd, 2005, 06:25 AM
How about books? I stumbled on pdf files of some sf novels that are still in copyright. (I was actually looking for info about pongi rice from Caladan, and was a bit surprised by the results). -
'Illegal' Downloading
Johnny D > May 22nd, 2005, 06:29 AM
Yeh, the question includes books, programs and music -
'Illegal' Downloading
Coconut Ent > May 22nd, 2005, 06:53 AM
Yeah, I did download the books... I figure it's OK 'cos I already have the hardcopy paperbacks at home... but then why do I bother... bleh....
Note: Japanese have a very different attitude regarding copyrights. For example the anime series "Naruto". The company actually gives out images and stills, and doesn't mind people downloading episodes peer to peer... apparently it wants to encourage and nurture a fan-base... My cousin says he downloaded a lot of eps.
However, it is now illegal to download eps 1-20, 'cos an American company bought them for screening...
More about the Japanese... they even create something called "doujinshi", which are, simply put, fan-fiction comics. Comics created by fans of manga and anime series using someone else's characters. They even buy and sell these things online!
THey even take it a step further... I've seen covers of Harry Potter doujinshi comics... I admit Sirius Black looks rather good as a bishounen manga character! -
'Illegal' Downloading
Boba,Obi Wan,Jango > May 22nd, 2005, 06:53 AM
Thieves :bg: (joking)
I haven't downloaed music, movies, tv episodes, books etc off the internet.
Nor do I buy illegal game copies. At one point, I considered getting my X-Box 'modded', but soon banished those fiendish thoughts.
I don't support downloading of films, music etc. ,because when you think about it, it is like stealing , only you're not going to get cuaght.
But then, some members of my family think thats crazy talk and I have watched some movies on illegal copies.
And I make sure I hand out Death Stares to anyone who has illegal downloads of Star Wars......
Matt
hades::paw::coffee:
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'Illegal' Downloading
Happy Flowergirl > May 22nd, 2005, 07:25 PM
I don't download anything either, cos I too believe it's stealing. If we all downloaded everything and paid for nothing, we would end up having nothing to download or just rubbish. Everybody needs a wage to survive and I would expect to pay these people their wage. Would you expect a wage at the end of the month for your employment?
The guy in a local music store looked at me as if I was stupid when I bought two copies of Scissor Sisters album last year (one for me and one for a friend's birthday pressie), he asked why I didn't just copy one. I told him straight. :there: -
'Illegal' Downloading
shadowfax > May 23rd, 2005, 10:36 AM
I believe that one day, attitudes to downloading will become more realsitic and accepting. Either that, or draconian laws will be drawn up to limit our freedom in many fundamental respects. I would prefer the former option and believe it will come to pass.
The industry cried murder and theft when the cassette recorder was invented, when the VCR was invented, when the photocopier was invented ... but the terrible things they predicted never came to pass. There are still books and there is still a movie and a music industry. With internet file sharing it will be much the same thing. Just ignore the prophets of doom. They'll shut up one day. -
'Illegal' Downloading
shadowfax > May 23rd, 2005, 10:38 AM
Coconut Ent Wrote:Yeah, I did download the books... I figure it's OK 'cos I already have the hardcopy paperbacks at home... but then why do I bother... bleh....
Note: Japanese have a very different attitude regarding copyrights. For example the anime series "Naruto". The company actually gives out images and stills, and doesn't mind people downloading episodes peer to peer... apparently it wants to encourage and nurture a fan-base... My cousin says he downloaded a lot of eps.
However, it is now illegal to download eps 1-20, 'cos an American company bought them for screening...
More about the Japanese... they even create something called "doujinshi", which are, simply put, fan-fiction comics. Comics created by fans of manga and anime series using someone else's characters. They even buy and sell these things online!
THey even take it a step further... I've seen covers of Harry Potter doujinshi comics... I admit Sirius Black looks rather good as a bishounen manga character!
and how about samiszdat? That's much the same thing, only it's been around for much longer. -
'Illegal' Downloading
RobRoy > May 23rd, 2005, 12:33 PM
shadowfax Wrote:I believe that one day, attitudes to downloading will become more realsitic and accepting. Either that, or draconian laws will be drawn up to limit our freedom in many fundamental respects. I would prefer the former option and believe it will come to pass.
The industry cried murder and theft when the cassette recorder was invented, when the VCR was invented, when the photocopier was invented ... but the terrible things they predicted never came to pass. There are still books and there is still a movie and a music industry. With internet file sharing it will be much the same thing. Just ignore the prophets of doom. They'll shut up one day.
By the same token, strict laws, both national and international, have been put in place. Court cases are heard all the time regarding copyright and copyright violation. Even those who have contracts and you would think wouldn't need to press their rights, have had to take their case into a courtroom to have it settled. Even the great Stan Lee had to press his case against Marvel for a proper payout from the profits of Spider-Man where Marvel claimed the movie didn't make much money at all.
For my dollar, I WILL NOT download movies. Music I don't care enough about to download, and so I've never bothered. But the movie industry is important to me, and I can see no rationalization for illegally downloading any film. I've yet to hear a decent rationale for so doing (as I've heard for song-sharing). I just love movies too much to want to harm the industry by supporting illegal downloads or bootleg versions of films. -
'Illegal' Downloading
shadowfax > May 23rd, 2005, 01:11 PM
RobRoy Wrote:By the same token, strict laws, both national and international, have been put in place. Court cases are heard all the time regarding copyright and copyright violation. Even those who have contracts and you would think wouldn't need to press their rights, have had to take their case into a courtroom to have it settled. Even the great Stan Lee had to press his case against Marvel for a proper payout from the profits of Spider-Man where Marvel claimed the movie didn't make much money at all.
The examples you cite relate to corporate theft, or at least improper corporate use of intellectual property. Using somebody else's work for your own profit is wrong. I think most of us would agree on that.
Recording a movie off a free TV channel onto a VCR and then passing the cassette on to a friend who missed the movie because he/she was on vacation is probably not theft in most people's moral perspectives - even if there are lawyers who would argue differently. However, making mass copies of DVDs and getting rich by selling them on the black market definitely is. It is all a question of proportionality.
RobRoy Wrote:For my dollar, I WILL NOT download movies. Music I don't care enough about to download, and so I've never bothered. But the movie industry is important to me, and I can see no rationalization for illegally downloading any film. I've yet to hear a decent rationale for so doing (as I've heard for song-sharing). I just love movies too much to want to harm the industry by supporting illegal downloads or bootleg versions of films.
What would you do if you wanted to watch a movie but all the legal DVDs you could find had the wrong country code. Would it be morally acceptable to buy one and then use a hacking trick to break the code (the producers would get their royalties, but you would be doing something some people would consider immoral by hacking the code), or would it be better to accept the producers constraint and not watch that movie. Or would it be fair to argue that seeing they don't make DVDs for your country code, they are not interested in you or your money and therefore they shouldn't complain if you download a pirated version from the net?
The same arguments can be applied to music CDs that will not play on computers. Some people (such as myself) don't have a CD player. I listen to all my music on my computer. Is it okay for me to use a hacking software on legally aquired recordings, or should I not listen to music the labels don't want me to hear? -
'Illegal' Downloading
Camech > May 23rd, 2005, 02:00 PM
I agree with Robroy. Illegal downloading is stealing, and not something I will ever support. People may attempt to justify it any way they want, and I guess whatever makes them feel better. But I have yet to see it rationalised in any acceptable way. -
'Illegal' Downloading
RobRoy > May 23rd, 2005, 02:57 PM
shadowfax Wrote:Recording a movie off a free TV channel onto a VCR and then passing the cassette on to a friend who missed the movie because he/she was on vacation is probably not theft in most people's moral perspectives - even if there are lawyers who would argue differently. However, making mass copies of DVDs and getting rich by selling them on the black market definitely is. It is all a question of proportionality.
I thought we were talking about the illegal downloading of movies or music. The recording of a television program is not something I'm overly concerned about, even distributing it to a friend is not something I'm overly concerned about either, althought the law does.
For me, personally, I would draw the line at mass distribution of such programs. But that's just me.
Quote:What would you do if you wanted to watch a movie but all the legal DVDs you could find had the wrong country code. Would it be morally acceptable to buy one and then use a hacking trick to break the code (the producers would get their royalties, but you would be doing something some people would consider immoral by hacking the code), or would it be better to accept the producers constraint and not watch that movie. Or would it be fair to argue that seeing they don't make DVDs for your country code, they are not interested in you or your money and therefore they shouldn't complain if you download a pirated version from the net?
Once you own a movie, once you've bought that movie, it's yours. You're free to transfer it to another medium if you like, as long as you aren't intending to sell or distribute it (with or without profit doesn't matter acording to law). For example, I have a VHS workout tape that I happen to enjoy. I've had it transferred to a DVD format so that I can keep the workout without wearing teh magnetic tape out; this is perfectly legal and within my rights. I also have about three different copies of The Lord of the Rings, so, I have an electronic copy of this book on my computer, so that when I get bored I can read it at my own leisure.
I have not distributed either of these to anyone else, and so I'm well within my rights.
If you buy the DVD and then transfer it to another medium, you're well within your rights legally. If you download the film from an illigitimate source, then royalties aren't being paid to the proper owners, and you've stolen the film. That is, in my mind, theft and support of a industry of theft.
Given my love of movies, I will not do this, and I do not support others who do it.
Quote:The same arguments can be applied to music CDs that will not play on computers. Some people (such as myself) don't have a CD player. I listen to all my music on my computer. Is it okay for me to use a hacking software on legally aquired recordings, or should I not listen to music the labels don't want me to hear?
Like I said, once you've bought the item, it's yours to do with as you please within certain confines.
Distribution, however, is not.
Personally, the best case (though I still don't agree with the practice) for song downloading is that from an album of twelve or twenty songs, you may only want three. So why pay for the entire album if you only want those three songs. Doesn't make sense. However, the music industry has responded by filling this need. Now you can legally download, save and burn a set of single songs to your computer for a modest fee. So I can't really support illegal song downloading either. -
'Illegal' Downloading
shadowfax > May 23rd, 2005, 03:44 PM
hmm, that is your opinion. However, the movie industry would like to see it made illegal to hack a recording I bought legally. They also want to see it made illegal to own hardware that can do such hacks. They even want it made illegal to publish information on the encryption system because they are afraid people could use this to develop hacks. In other words: the industry is totally paranoid. If they don't care what I do with my recording once I've payed for it, why introduce country codes / area codes in the first place and why campaign to have hacks made illegal? -
'Illegal' Downloading
RobRoy > May 23rd, 2005, 04:58 PM
shadowfax Wrote:hmm, that is your opinion.
That's right. That's what was asked for, and that's what I've given.
Quote:However, the movie industry would like to see it made illegal to hack a recording I bought legally. They also want to see it made illegal to own hardware that can do such hacks. They even want it made illegal to publish information on the encryption system because they are afraid people could use this to develop hacks. In other words: the industry is totally paranoid.
Because the industry hemorages millions to billions of dollars (by some estimates, though I don't know how legit those estimates are) every year due to illegal copy and distribution of their product. They're legitimately paranoid because, left unchecked, illegal downloads, illegal distribution, and illegal sales will kill the industry. They put encryption on their mediums for the same reason that banks put locks on their doors and vaults. Without such, you might as well put a "Take Me" sign on the door, and leave courtesy bags for people to carry out the money.
The issue is not the one-time user, who is just trying to copy his/her CD or DVD. The issue is the mass illegal distribution and illegal sale of these comodities. The recording industry and the movie industry can't put legislature and anit-hack codes on one set of disks and label them "For those who wish to pirate only!" and another set of labels for "Legimate consumers who aren't going to steal."
The codes and legislature is made as hard to get around as possible to try to stem the hemorage of illegal sales.
If you can think of a better way to prevent pirating, by all means, submit it.
Quote:If they don't care what I do with my recording once I've payed for it, why introduce country codes / area codes in the first place and why campaign to have hacks made illegal?
Again, it's not the individual user that the industries are concerned with. One person copying from a bought VHS to DVD isn't the issue. They've already paid their money to see/hear the show.
It's the individual who pays $100 for 1000 blank CDs and then copies a popular CD to disk, and sells it for $5 a pop. The math isn't hard to do and it's not something the industry can compete with. -
'Illegal' Downloading
immortalem > May 23rd, 2005, 05:12 PM
I don't download anything because I know all the artists and crew put a lot of hardwork into those movies, music, etc. and it's not right for me to deny their hardwork. Also I feel that it is stealing in a way. -
'Illegal' Downloading
Orangeblossom > May 23rd, 2005, 05:38 PM
I almost feel that it wouldn't matter to download free music or movies from celebrities that have so much money they don't know what to do with it...
But I've never downloaded free music or movies or books... no wait, I did download a few songs once, but it was on a legal site, before the law passed. And I've burned CDs off of friends, if that counts... I don't see anything especially harmful about it.
But pirating, like Robroy was saying, that's definitely a problem. And I suppose that these laws that inconvenience us, their better purpose is to solve a problem. Of course, I've always looked at it that if these people (that pirate music) broke small laws before, then they're going to break bigger laws too. -
'Illegal' Downloading
Coconut Ent > May 23rd, 2005, 09:32 PM
WHat do you think about "abandonware"? These are computer programs (usually games) that are no longer distributed or sold, partly because of obsolescence (DOS operating system, for example), or because the company that made the games is no longer around (for example, Starflight I and Starflight II, by Binary Systems).
A bit of diligent searching on the Web will yield these old treasures. -
'Illegal' Downloading
Coconut Ent > May 23rd, 2005, 09:36 PM
shadowfax Wrote:and how about samiszdat? That's much the same thing, only it's been around for much longer.
Aye, many of the bootleg science fiction novels I accidentally discovered were hosted on Russian sites as pdf files! The Samizdat photocopying tradition has moved on!! -
'Illegal' Downloading
shadowfax > May 24th, 2005, 04:09 AM
RobRoy Wrote:The codes and legislature is made as hard to get around as possible to try to stem the hemorage of illegal sales.
If you can think of a better way to prevent pirating, by all means, submit it.
I understand the point you are making. However, this doesn't address the issue of country/area codes. These are obviously not designed to stop large scale pirating. Somebody who wants to do that will also have the means to buy a whole array of DVD players - one for every country code. No, this system is definietyl designed to stop the small user wishing to watch DVDs for his/her personal enjoyment and by not covering all areas, is denying that person the right to see that film without resorting to legal hacks. -
'Illegal' Downloading
RobRoy > May 24th, 2005, 02:16 PM
shadowfax Wrote:I understand the point you are making. However, this doesn't address the issue of country/area codes. These are obviously not designed to stop large scale pirating. Somebody who wants to do that will also have the means to buy a whole array of DVD players - one for every country code. No, this system is definietyl designed to stop the small user wishing to watch DVDs for his/her personal enjoyment and by not covering all areas, is denying that person the right to see that film [sni[
Why do you think that this wouldn't stop large scale pirating?
With a country code, you can't ship it out to distributers in other countries where laws are less strict if enforced at all. Some Asian countries have little no regard for copyright laws, and pirating is rampant. A country code, to me, seems like a first line of defense when copyright infringement doesn't hold up across a border.
Sure, you can purchase a number of DVD players, but that requires an additional investment. Again, leaving the DVD completely copyable across the board seems to me like hanging a sign out to say: "Look, we don't care, why should you?"
Quote:without resorting to legal hacks.
I think you mean "illegal" hacks, yes? If the hack is legal, then likely there was a charge for it and everyone is getting their proper payment.